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Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42446		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  npalen [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Hi guys and gals. I haven’t posted a whole lot lately while taking a break from building after 95 archtops in the last dozen years. I’ve developed some health issues between the sawdust and lacquer fumes and need to decide how to proceed. I think the nitro lacquer is the main culprit as I have always hung the guitars in the basement workshop while curing. I spray in the garage with a good respirator and industrial filter/exhaust system but seem to have developed a hyper sensitivity to the lacquer from the off gassing during the minimum four weeks of curing.
I know you will tell me that letting the lacquer cure in the workshop is not a good idea and hindsight agrees with you. I could never smell the lacquer after letting the guitar hang overnight in the garage and then curing in the basement so I thought I was being safe.
With that said, my current concern is where to go from here. My dealer has done an awesome job of selling all of the Palen Archtops not only here in the States but various places around the globe also. I don’t want to let him down as he continues to book orders for my archtops but having to weigh that against the health issues.
Should I just quit building and chalk it all up to experience? Should I wait a year or so and see if the health improves? Should I find an apprentice to train and use an offsite location for curing the lacquer? Should I look for someone “out there” who would be willing to build the Palen Archtops under license and, if so, should I sell my CNC router, fixtures, tooling and hand finishing processes to that person or company?
I’m a 67 year young retired design engineer with time on my hands so keeping the build in-house makes sense but not at the expense of further risking my health. The downside to not continuing is that I’ve learned so much and hate to see the knowledge go to waste. I sincerely appreciate any and all suggestions from you folks who I’ve learned from and enjoyed here on the forum over the years.
Nelson Palen
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
My first thought us to outsource your finishing. Lots of builders do.
Author:  EddieLee [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I am very sorry to hear you are having problems. If you can deal with the dust and you still enjoy building, you could farm out the finishing portion.

May I ask what kind of health issues you are having. If you are having breathing issues, I can strongly relate. That is something to be very careful with for sure.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I'd look into outsourcing the finish or changing the products or process you're using. I've never used them but seems like a lot of guys use water based stuff, which isn't necessarily safer but you'd likely not be sensitized to it.
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I was going to say shop out the finishing to a dedicated pro finisher, but others beat me to it. So my second choice would be French polish or water based.
Author:  Spyder [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Saw a presentation on violin making once by a man who said he had stop building. Why? He said the passion is gone, and as he said, "without passion, you have no business touching one of these." He did say if someone wanted one, he would build it, but as a job only, as the joy of building for the sake of building was over for him.

I thought that sad, but suppose I can see his point. So, I guess the biggest question for you is about your passion to build. If it is still there, then there are plenty of alternative courses of action. The resulting instruments will not be the same as the ones you've done, but can still be good.

But if you are having respiratory issues, that might cross over into sawdust, not just the finishes. So not an easy answer, unfortunately.
Author:  emoney [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Of course your health trumps any decision, because at the end of it all, the only thing with value is "time". Having said that,
only you can decide what's truly best for you. We can weigh in with options, but you know yourself far, far better than we do.

Why not switch to one of the new water-based lacquers that are on the market? There are tons of success stories out there
with people switching for the exact same reason and getting great results.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Take a page from the career of Stuart Mossman... find another finisher.
Author:  ChuckB [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
You could always find another conditioned and vented place to hang the sprayed guitars waiting to dry. This is what I try to do, but being space challenged it is hard to do always.

Chuck
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
As an amateur who is still in the "honeymoon" stage with building(hope that never ends) I instinctively shy away from thinking about an experienced and dedicated builder ending his career. Great advice has been given, by folk that have the experience, so take this for what it's worth coming from me.
You need to weigh in your mind whether or not the desire is still there. If it is, the advice to either outsource the finish, or find some place outside your home to cure that finish is the first step. After that, I'd take precautions with respiratory protection each and every time I did any kind of sanding,finishing, or anything that would expose you to dust or possible allergens. Every time.
If you find after following these precautions you are able to continue, then you know what you need to do to stay in the game. If no matter what you try you still have problems, at least you know for sure.
That's my advice, for what it's worth. Do everything in your power to address all your issues, that way there is no doubt one way or another.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Hi Nelson! :)

I'm very sorry to hear about the health issues but was also very happy to hear about how successful your beautiful creations have been - this is something to be very, very proud of!

Two suggestions come to mind for me and please also consider that our answers to you here may be as individual as the individuals that make them.

I'm no stranger to health problems and it's seemingly always something now for me and as such I just have to deal with it and add it to the growing list. Although when ever I learn of something else that is problematic with my own health what I often can't see the woods through the trees with initially is the idea that we all adjust in time. I've adjusted, stopped doing some things and concentrated on what I can do. I'm also very, very good at personally sticking my head in the sand and find that denial is a pretty powerful tool..... for a while..... :D

As such and knowing that you are a very bright guy from my experiences with you here on the OLF for years now I suspect that there will be some adjusting for you and in this adjusting you will also find answers if you really want to continue to be involved with producing killer instruments.

I also wanted to suggest that you consider teaching? An interesting thing happened to me in my own Lutherie journey and that is that the rush and high that I experience from completing one of mine and having it turn out well can actually be exceeded by the satisfaction of helping someone else to accomplish their Lutherie dreams by teaching them to build guitars. If you have not been involved in teaching it can be very rewarding and permits folks to live vicariously though the successes (and failures....) of others and often without the direct exposure to activities and substances that we may have become sensitized to.

In any event here is wishing you the very, very best in all that you seek to do! [:Y:]
Author:  violinvic [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Oil varnish finish. Any time I do any thing that requires sanding, I have on a respirator.
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
My vote would be to find a partner who could do the dusty and fumey parts and leave the finesse work for you. Learning to use the CNC and your tooling, and eventually gaining the some of your other knowledge would have value to them. Lacquer can off gas and cure in an unheated garden shed - no reason it has to be in the shop. If you still have the Passion, then by any means build.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I would think that with some investment the saw dust issue could be resolved...

sensitivity to lacquer fumes though...well I have found that this (for me at least) can go away after years pass...I used to have a sensitivity that manifested in such a way as to feel like my teeth were loose! it's not nearly so bad these days and part of that I'm sure is the fact that my work conditions have changed to reflect a more real concern for tradesmen...e.g. it is very rare I have to be around painters on jobsites these days and if things aren't done correctly I will simply pack up and leave.

in your case you of course have complete control over your jobsite and have learned the harsh lesson that off gassing will mess with you. I've found the actual spraying to be fairly easy to deal with...wear a properly fitting respirator, have proper exhaust and take your clothes off after a session...but being in the area of off gassing has always been an issue...I forget which member here uses a fan to speed up the process of curing, but that sounds like a mighty attractive way to deal with off gassing...blow a fan over the finished product and have that exhausted to the outside.

in a nutshell, if you still have the passion I would think it would be good for you to continue if you can deal with the work conditions that are troubling you
Author:  ernie [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Nelson I/m closer to you in age at 66. My 2 cents worth , would be ,if you could afford the cash flow, find a space away from your home where you can keep a distance from your home work space and possibly split your work between house/shop.Since i don/t know how much space you need or use , it could be a tough call. Alternately as mentioned, easier to say harder to do find a pro and sub out all your finishing.I would also charge a slightly higher price for the a. top gtrs to cover your new cash flow to/from the finisher. When making big life changes I would spend some time to think over what is in your best interests long term .Hasty decisions made when ones emotions are high can result in negative consequences down the road . Take your time Peace.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I think I'd be tempted to farm it out or move to a more 'health friendly' finish. Put the sprayer away and use a brush for Oil or Spirit varnish. There are still fumes but an open window (whilst the finish is being applied) should be enough.
These may not be the usual type of finish for an archtop but some of the high end Mandolin builders offer these types of finishes. Quite often Mandolin builders are under some influence by the Violin making tradition, hence the more traditional type of finish. Some actually promote it as a superior finish. The archtop obviously shares some influence from Violinmaking too.
Author:  ernie [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Good pt. Michael a noted mandolin maker was singing the praises of oil varnish , which though smelly can be exhausted through a large exhaust fan in a garage or seperate work space.. I am using behlens rock hard from woodcraft.Others use Pratt an lambert #38 or epifanes successfully.
Author:  Goodin [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I did my first nitro lacquer finish in my basement recently and learned the hard way to never EVER do that again, ever. I mean, never. I thought I had all safety controls in place, good PPE, good ventilation, etc. But the fumes that didn't get vented out and off gassing got all through the house and made me sick for 4-5 days. I removed the guitar from the house and left all windows and fans going for a few days to clear out the fumes. Fortunately I have a friend who is a professional furniture restorer who sprayed the final coats and let it sit in his shop for a few weeks to off gas.

Anyways,

I have heard of making a box to hold the guitar while it off gasses. Basically you make a box and hang it up on the wall and have a small fan blowing in fresh air to the box and a vent at the other end of the box going out of the shop. I haven't tried this but it seems like it would work, and probably help cure faster.
Author:  arie [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
-outsource your finishing.
-or use french polish or alternative finishes.

a few years ago my wife commissioned a guitar from a "celebrity" builder. the guitar arrived with the finish still curing in the case and sticking to the case velvet in places. the lacquer smell was extreme and we were not happy at all. the guitar was only 50% of what was agreed upon build wise with many specs just "ignored" so we sold the guitar asap as dealing with the guy was a p.i.t.a. the finish fumes were making us sick.

try Joe White for finishing and keep building.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I have a customer right now who has requested nitro, because he eats through French Polish on the backs and sides of his classicals. I have offered to provide him with samples finished with Rock Hard, U-Beaut, Tru Oil or some waterborn and let him take his choice. No way nitro gets anywhere near my shop again. I'm curious which one he will pick.
Author:  the Padma [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Me hear ya... we is same age, way to much sawdust and fumes for me too, plus tobacco.
Have been changing work habits.
Been thinking of changing hobbies too... you know something less hazards to me health like perhaps stamp collecting or womanizing. bliss
Author:  Goodin [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Padma, Womanizing is much more hazardous to your health!
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Goodin wrote:
Padma, Womanizing is much more hazardous to your health!


Yes, but no less satisfying!

Alex
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
Alex Kleon wrote:
Goodin wrote:
Padma, Womanizing is much more hazardous to your health!


Yes, but no less satisfying!

Alex


Guitars don't talk back.
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continue to build or hang it up after a dozen+ years?
I have had the same issues with nitro lacquer, horrible stuff. Waterbased lacquers are darn near as bad for you, and will fool you into thinking they are not as bad because the smell is not as strong, but it is still bad stuff to breath, and not as good of a finish to boot...
I started using Sutherland Welles products quite a few years back (as I have said on several other posts to the forum) and I strongly recommend these finishes. The Uralkyd 500 is an amazingly durable, high gloss finish that in all honesty looks better and performs better in the long run than nitro.
The biggest advantage, in my opinion, is the fact that it is a botanical finish, the solvent is made from distilled citrus peels. It smells like fresh oranges, no harmful fumes. You spray it just like nitro, it just has a slower dry time, but the cure time before you can buff it is much quicker than lacquer, only 1 week as opposed to several weeks.
It would be a shame to give up on building, as it sounds like you are doing really well with it, just because of the adverse reaction to lacquer..
Give this stuff a try! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Luthier- ... 5af09f8073
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