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| Troubles with a jointer.... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42421 |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Troubles with a jointer.... |
I bought a jointer recently, and the first panel a ran on it came out perfect. Today I tried to join a few backs, but I could not get the edge to close. The front edge going into the blades always left a slight gap for the first four inches or so. So I would flip it, and the gap (now at the back ) would close, and the previously closed area would come out with a gap. What does this indicate about the setup on the jointer? Frustrated! Thanks... |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
The infeed and outfeed tables are not parallel. Crank up the infeed table until it is flush with the outfeed table, and place a straightedge on the full length. You should have contact with the straightedge over the entire length of the jointer. Adjust accordingly. Adjustment of the tables varies from one jointer design to another, but usually involves three or four set screws underneath, with locknuts. On some types, only one of the tables is adjustable. Also, check to make sure the cutters are flush with the outfeed table, not above it. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
First, yank the tables. Clean all the grunge out, reassemble and then follow what John just said regarding adjustments... They must be set up to be coplaner....not just parallel. A quick and dirty trick to get you by till you have the time to set it up properly is to clamp a board that is longer on both ends than the total amount of the snipe cut being taken out of the piece you jointing. Personally...me only use the Jointer to get it close, then me shoot the joint with a hand plane. Most time me just shoot the sucker. Is faster and easier. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
It's a helical head, so hopefully it's not the knives. What bugs me is that it worked last week. I think having it on a mobile base and moving it around is probably not smart.... |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
meddlingfool wrote: It's a helical head, so hopefully it's not the knives. What bugs me is that it worked last week. I think having it on a mobile base and moving it around is probably not smart.... Last week eh....well dude ...things change.  The only thing that you can count on is change. 
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| Author: | Tom West [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
the Padma wrote: Personally...me only use the Jointer to get it close, then me shoot the joint with a hand plane. Most time me just shoot the sucker. Is faster and easier. Does not help solve your problem but this is basically my routine also. Tom |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
meddlingfool wrote: I think having it on a mobile base and moving it around is probably not smart.... My jointer is on a mobile base also and I find it very convenient. It does not seem to have any effect on how well it works. Tom |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
I would go 1 step farther.. As a machinist , we would use the straight edge to get close , then you set a square on each table and meet them at the knives. IF the table is out of place , the squares will show it as you move them across the tables. Cheap low end jointers are often poorly set up. Read your owners manual for adjustment procedures. The tables have to be true with the head and the tables must be true to each other. If the gibbs were not adjusted or loose that would explain your issue. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
One more I use vy thin brass shim stock to level the tables if they sag, I have an older machine that needed to be shimmed in order to make the front and rear co-planar .I use a 36in starrett st, edge. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Old machinist here also and can support both John and Todd's methods as very good. The only caveat with John's method is to make sure your two squares together equal 180 degrees. Blades back to back on a known flat surface with no gap. Some squares especially the cheaper variety may not be 90 degrees. Not a major problem as long as two together equal 180 degrees. Tom |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Ton's of great info. Sometimes it's as simple as setting the outfeed table height. Try it flush to the cutter or a couple thou. high. Then set you feed table to the desired cut depth. It would be nice if it was that easy. |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Great advice so far! I'll add that on some "problem" jointers that just can't seem to be setup correctly, the issue will typically be that one or both tables have some serious twist in them. My 6" Delta jointer has both tables twisted enough to create a serious problem. Yet it can still joint perfectly! What I have to do(assuming the outfeed table's height is correctly set) is move the fence back and forth a wee bit to find the "sweet spot" where the twists cancel each other. Not ideal, but it's the best workaround I could come-up with to make it usable. Any of you old-school machinists have any tips on flattening the tables, at home? I've considered building-up a masking tape "dam" around the tables, and pouring a layer of hard "bar-top" epoxy one each one(after setting the entire jointer as close to dead level as possible, of course). This should give me two perfectly flat and coplaner tables. Not sure how durable it would be, though, so best would be a DIY table milling of some sort. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Thanks for the tips, folks! |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
grumpy wrote: Great advice so far! I'll add that on some "problem" jointers that just can't seem to be setup correctly, the issue will typically be that one or both tables have some serious twist in them. My 6" Delta jointer has both tables twisted enough to create a serious problem. Yet it can still joint perfectly! What I have to do(assuming the outfeed table's height is correctly set) is move the fence back and forth a wee bit to find the "sweet spot" where the twists cancel each other. Not ideal, but it's the best workaround I could come-up with to make it usable. Any of you old-school machinists have any tips on flattening the tables, at home? I've considered building-up a masking tape "dam" around the tables, and pouring a layer of hard "bar-top" epoxy one each one(after setting the entire jointer as close to dead level as possible, of course). This should give me two perfectly flat and coplaner tables. Not sure how durable it would be, though, so best would be a DIY table milling of some sort. The first thing is to be dead certain that there is no grunge, sawdust grease ect. in the in and out feed table beds or rails. If you still cant get the sucker set up as Todd suggests and your sure the table(s) have a twist. Take it to a machine shop and get them to machine it...but get a quote (not an estimate) first cuz some jointers just ain't worth the machining costs. Me has boat anchored a few, suckers are cheap enough on creigs list. Dudes have "milled" beds before with 320 wet dry contacted to mdf. Regarding pulling a MacGyver...ya sure, is your money, time and maybe, you might pull it off...but it ain't the way to do it. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
It's a granite bed... |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
I don't have a machine shop next door, and the ones I can find want about as much as a new one would cost, as you say. But then, there's no guaranty that the new one won't twist in a few years, either(mine was perfect when new, and twisted gradually after about 7-10 years, I figure). Plus, I'm not one to give-up on an otherwise fine machine. I would need to attack the beds with something a lot more aggressive than 320.... |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Mario: Assume your tables are cast iron. Cast iron is noted for distorting when it is new. Quite often C.I. castings were roughed machined and then left to age which allow some of the tension to relax before they were finished machined. If you were to have your table or tables machined I think they would remain stable if the machine is the age you say. I have flattened plane bottoms by scraping and lapping but it's a bit of work and also dirty. A scraper can be made from an old file by rounding the end in a slight radius and pushing the file lengthwise on the high spots. Be sure to use a handle or remove the tang. Can't imagine doing that on a jointer table. Your idea and a section of aluminum plate might be a way out if you have enough adjustment to lower the table. I'm sure you will come up with something. You usually have the answer for most problems. Take care. Tom |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
grumpy wrote: I don't have a machine shop next door, and the ones I can find want about as much as a new one would cost, as you say. But then, there's no guaranty that the new one won't twist in a few years, either(mine was perfect when new, and twisted gradually after about 7-10 years, I figure). Plus, I'm not one to give-up on an otherwise fine machine. I would need to attack the beds with something a lot more aggressive than 320.... More aggressive eh...well then try 220. Granite eh...ok so take it to a marble counter top shop or tombstone maker. Or bite and buy a new one. Then of course you could always slather her up in epoxy...ya right! Tell us...was dis jointer exposed to enjoy that polar cold snap? If so ...wait till it gets warm again, but once cast takes a bend, it don't like banding back. 7 to 10 years eh! Well by the sounds of your questions it appears to me thinkin that you have never dismantled, cleaned and reset the sucker...tell me, when was last time you changed the oil in yer car...or took a bath...rhetorical questions, but you getting the jist of me drift here?  About the only machine manufacture that me know of that leaves its castings out side for a few winters before final milling is or was General form Dummondville Quebec. Oh ya...me highly recommends a #8, less than $100 on ebay and be done with that delta power sucken , screaming , makes you go deafs in the head warped banchie. But then, what do me know about nothin, blessings. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
In a rare fit of prudence, I've decided to let the rep come and fix it under warranty, since it is brand new.... And he's to Delta rep too, so maybe he can fix the brand new piece of crap drum sander of theirs.... |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Padma, you're useless advice of telling everyone to buy a new one isn't helpful whatsoever. Tom, yes, I'm well aware of cast iron's propensity to move if not well seasoned, and that's another reason to not give up on the machine; it's now well seasoned. I can come up with sanding beams, grinders, etc..., but what I need ideas with is how to get it --flat--. If I had a large enough lapping plate, that would be ideal, but I don't. And Padma, yes, it has been taken apart and maintained, thanks. But all the maintenance and adjustments in the world won't correct twisted tables... |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
grumpy wrote: Padma, you're useless advice of telling everyone to buy a new one isn't helpful whatsoever.... And Padma, yes, it has been taken apart and maintained, thanks. But all the maintenance and adjustments in the world won't correct twisted tables... Well grumpy If you find my advise useless, me most humbly suggest you DON"T GO BE READING ME POSTS NO MORE! .............................Real simple eh. =============================================== Ya, your welcome. Oh and ya, your right ~ about twisted castings....well not quite right cuz you see...you old grumpus...machining a casting is maintenance, just like getting a tuneup...to your attitude... which me suggest. Not only that...sometimes buying a new machine is cheaper than fluffing around fixin junk. Otherwise we would all be still driving model T's. ( which would be kind a nice) But if you like keeping junk running...go for it. non the less blessings.  ?adma
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
meddlingfool wrote: In a rare fit of prudence, I've decided to let the rep come and fix it under warranty, since it is brand new.... And he's to Delta rep too, so maybe he can fix the brand new piece of crap drum sander of theirs.... DUDE, the sucker is under warranty and you gotts the balls to go be wasting all of our time trying to help you? ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") PRUDENCE??? B.S. IGNORANCE more like it.  The average loofer by the hour charges $75 bucks shop rate. I, me, the ?adma has posted to your thread at least 5 times...the way me figures it you owe me at least a half an hours shop time. Then there is the wasted time of all the rest of us who came to your aid. Who the hecks you think you are? Guess your name says it all...so go meddle else were, cuz me don't be fancying fools lightly. And please be so kind as to stay out of my threads.... at least until me steam blows off. Prudence...Right! non the less blessings. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Hi Mario, a person can rough sharpen a chisel with a belt sander pretty quickly. If you can find the twist you may be able to take some out with a beltsander and then refine it a bit with sandpaper glued to a sheet of glass or melamine. Jointers only have to be so flat to work O.K. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Dear Padma. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Troubles with a jointer.... |
Yes, it turns out the rep will come have a look at it in person to see what's up. I didnt think a warranty would cover that. He asked me not to fiddle with it until he has had a chance to see it himself. He says that Steel City is not known for having jointers that need work right out of the box so he wants to see the problem himself. Fair enough. Thanks to the useful info from Todd and others I was able to diagnose exactly what is wrong, which is an infeed table with an upward slope. Hopefully, not all of you think that using this public forum to get information about how to fix machines is a waste of time. I know I don't. Thanks... |
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