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New shop. Heating questions.
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Author:  JSDenvir [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  New shop. Heating questions.
It's not official yet, but it's looking like there may be a new shop in my future (it comes with a new house, but let's stick with the important stuff for the moment :-) )

Its an oversize 2-car garage, with a light-filled second floor. New construction, with a poured slab, exposed framing on the inside. So I'll have to drywall and insulate both levels. There is no water or gas to the garage.

I'm anticipating putting a wall between the 2 main floor bays, saving one for the car, and using the other one for tablesaw, band saw, sander etc. The second floor will be for hand work, assembling, and finishing.

The great joy of this is that I get to make of it whatever I want, but now I have to decide what I want. :-) I know, everyone should have such problems.

The big question is, what's the best way to manage heat and A/C? It's about 60 miles east of Toronto, so the winters are cold and the summers are hot.

If anyone has any thoughts or specific experience, I'd sure love to hear it.

Thanks in advance

Steve
Author:  Mick Oliveira [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Steve, I am in the process of putting the finishing touches on my new shop which is a single car bay of my 2 car garage in Oakville. I have insulated the walls and ceilings, put in a wood subfloor and I have installed industrial style nylon brush weatherstrip around the garage doors to minimize air infiltration. The shop is heated, air conditioned and dehumidified. I have put a lot of thought into the design and would be glad to share any information I learned in the process with you.
Author:  JSDenvir [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
That's great Mick, thank you. I'm currently in Toronto if you could find the time to give me a call. I'm at 416-690-0207.

Or drop me your number and I'd be happy to call you.

Steve
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
I heat my shop with a completely sealed, natural gas wall unit(32,000 BTU). It's compact, affordable, and with no open flame, it's perfectly safe in a (reasonably) dusty shop environment. These are rated for mobile homes. Tell the HVAC people what you're doing, and they should know what to suggest.

The concrete slab is a problem; concrete is very hygroscopic, and will absorb and release moisture, forever frustrating any attempts by you to control the humidity. My shop is also built on a slab, so what I did was to place 1x3 (pressure treated)spruce strapping on 16" centers, fixed in place with Hilty shots. I then placed two(2) layers of heavy poly vapour barrier over these, and up at least a foot on all walls. Next came a layer of 5/8" T&G OSB, a layer of 1" Styrofoam SM(rated for outdoor use), and finally another layer of 5/8" OSB, laid perpendicular to the first layer(this staggers the sheets' joints). This sheet/foam/sheet sandwich is then screwed together to the strapping. Best thing I could have ever done! Not only is it warm and dry, it's also excellent for my back and feet! I can work all day, every day and not feel worn down(most of the time), yet 10 minutes on the concrete floor at anyone else's shop(or home depot, etc...) kills my back. It's also stiff enough that all the large power tools remain solidly where they are.
Author:  Jamie [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Steve...your other option is to take a look at the Canadian Woodworking Forum....the bulk of the members seem to be from Ontario and there is a whole sub forum just on shop heating...plus lots of shop photos. I spent a lot of time there when planning and building my new shop. They are helpful to say the least.

And congrats on the new shop (and house). Jamie
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
The best way to manage your heat and air conditioning is to take the proper precautions when sealing the room initially. The better you seal and insulate, the better the room will hold temperature and humidity.

Epoxy the concrete at the very least to seal it...make sure it's well sealed. Use R-19 or higher on the walls and ceiling (recommend higher - especially on the ceiling) and MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE to use heavy poly sheeting under the drywall. When this sheeting is installed make SURE you have thoroughly covered all gaps. If you intend to leave the ceiling without drywall then be especially careful installing the poly to avoid gaps. The idea here is that the more airtight barriers you put between yourself and the weather the better. So do a good taping job on the drywall too. Personally, I'd drywall the ceiling too.

I'd say that baseboards aren't 100% necessary but they will add a little more seal if you install them with caulking. Lotta work for a marginal gain here.

A small over head electric heater will suffice for this small area. I would figure a decent wall mount air conditioner would be fine as well. The better sealed the room is...the less the heating and cooling units will matter...which is to say that the units can be the minimum manufacturer recommended size for the space. Install the AC upstairs and the heater downstairs. Don't insulate any inside walls or floors....just the outside walls and ceiling of the controlled area.

You might also want to consider a ventilation fan that can displace all the air in the entire shop within a few minutes. I installed a large exhaust fan in my spray room that was in the opposite corner of my shop from the entry door. Subsequently...I find that I often turn the fan on for the sole purpose replacing the air in the shop. A downdraft sanding station, strategically placed could also serve that function.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
When I built my shop the 2 things you can control are the insulation and sealing. I use a hot air unit gas is more efficient but we have to use bottled gas so I opted for oil hear. I have 2 by 6 studs with a 1 in air space to the out side. I have 22 in of insulation in the roof. I can heat my shop and control the RH well. As Mario points out cement can be an issue . I poured my on top of foam insulation and sealed it.
I tried a humidifier in the heat system and it was removed after 5 years. I opted for lasko 9 gal down stairs and 3 gallon up stairs. I have 2 window AC units for summer . The best advice is seal and insulate.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
I'm in the process of building a shop too. So this thread is perfect!

My shop is being built from a two story barn. It's a well built barn however with wood siding and a metal roof and framed 24in on center.Huge old oak planks on a diagonal on the inside make up the walls. The floor is hardwood and the building rests on concrete footers so it is exposed dirt floor under neath. That's the only thing that concerns me and I'm not sure how to deal with it. I like the hardwood but I'm thinking of adding a layer of plastic and another floor.

Anyway I'm looking into the Mitsubishi Ductless heating and cooling units. http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/con ... t-showcase

This is where I'm at now. Would love to see pics of your shops too.

Image
Author:  Dan Miller [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Good timing on this thread for me, too. Just in the process of closing-in the timber frame (which looks to be hampered this week by snow...)

In a previous converted 2-carhole shop, I had a Detroit Radiant (http://www.reverberray.com) 10-foot radiant tube set up to draw and exhaust outside the shop to avoid the issue of dust and combustion. Worked well - these work best in a shop with concrete floors and lots of cast iron.

The last shop was a small timber frame, and I installed a Jotul gas-fired fake-wood stove. That worked ok, and the ambiance while it was on was nice. Not sure how efficient it was in the long run, and I didn't get to use it long before moving.

Looking for options for the current build, and sure would be nice to find a solution that matches the aesthetics of the rest of the building.
Author:  Rob Flindall [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Hi Steve - I'm up here in Peterborough. Last year I fully insulated my garage and installed a Big Maxx natural gas heater I purchased from TSC - it's fantastic. If it's an option for you, these heaters also come in a propane model. You can purchase a large propane tank for outside of your shop and run the lines in to the heater. What I also like about this heater is that it's a spark ignition - there's no pilot light.

Here's a link to one of the units - http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=50&id=180

Keep an eye on the TSC flyer in your paper if you have one near you - they're constantly going on sale. I purchased mine for $300 on sale. Install a thermostat and never worry about your shop heat again :)

PS - just saw they sell these at Home Hardware too!

Let me know if you have questions about the unit.
Author:  JSDenvir [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Thanks Rob, if things work out, I won't be too far from you. Midway between Cobourg and Rice Lake.

Steve
Author:  Goat Rock Ukulele [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
This if for the wood floor guy. If you can get under your floor cover the ground with plastic sheeting. That will reduce moisture coming up thru the floor by 80 percent. Also use insulation between the joist. Then as a final act paint your floor with two part epoxy paint. Use the real nasty kind that you must wear a resperator to install.

For the original poster also use a two part epoxy paint for your concrete floor. It's not cheap stuff and will kill you if you don't use a resporator and the proper filter but the stuff is bulletproof when installed over clean concrete. It forms an almost perfect moisture barrier and is tough as nails. I installed an epoxy floor in my shop 20 years ago and regularly drag 300 lb tools across it with little marking.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
JSDenvir wrote:
Thanks Rob, if things work out, I won't be too far from you. Midway between Cobourg and Rice Lake.

Steve


That's a nice area, Steve. You'll love it there!

Alex
Author:  JSDenvir [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Thanks Alex. Between you and Rob, I'm discovering that there may actually be guitar life east of Toronto :-)

Steve
Author:  JSDenvir [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Goat Rock Ukulele wrote:
For the original poster also use a two part epoxy paint for your concrete floor. It's not cheap stuff and will kill you if you don't use a resporator and the proper filter but the stuff is bulletproof when installed over clean concrete. It forms an almost perfect moisture barrier and is tough as nails. I installed an epoxy floor in my shop 20 years ago and regularly drag 300 lb tools across it with little marking.

Thanks Mike. You wouldn't happen to have a brand name, would you? Or are they all pretty much the same?

Thanks

Steve
Author:  Rob Flindall [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Quote:
Thanks Alex. Between you and Rob, I'm discovering that there may actually be guitar life east of Toronto

Steve


There most certainly is! Including myself, here in Peterborough we have :

http://www.hank2hendrix.com - in business here since 1996
http://www.alexanderjamesguitars.com - beautiful electric guitars
http://www.martinbellguitars.com - just discovered this fellow - guitar tech

There's another couple of fellows here locally, but I can't remember their names right now.

If you do make it over this way, we'll have to connect some time. Same for you Alex!
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
I'll be half way to you next weekend, Rob. I'm measuring for a kitchen in Cavan. Maybe we can get together for a coffee in Peterborough when I'm done.

Alex
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New shop. Heating questions.
Steve, regarding the epoxy floor cover, Sherwin Williams sells a good one. Not sure if they are in Canada but suspect they are. If you know someone that has an account you can get a fair price.
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