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Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41950		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Hi all,

I didn't much like hammering in frets on my first two builds, so I've been looking at options for pressing them in. I found this offer...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/G-M-I-fret-press-caul-plus-6-radiused-grooved-inserts-/261134430033?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cccd32f51

... but I don't currently have a drill press/pillar drill.

My first question, is could they be used effectively in one of those budget bench top drill presses (and, while I'm at it, are those cheap bench top ones really suitable for accurately drilling neck bolt and classical bridge holes?)

And secondly, has anyone had success (or not) with coupling fret press cauls with a welding C clamp, such as this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOB-LOT-50-X-SILVERLINE-450MM-C-TYPE-WELDING-CLAMPS-/310737254313?pt=UK_WSJL_Wholesale_GL&hash=item48596237a9

... Ant Setchell shows how he made his on his blog, http://home.asparagine.net/ant/blog/?p=223. I don't have any metal working experience so not sure where/how I'll drill rivets out etc, but it looks neat!

Maybe it woul be easier/better to modify an f clamp into one of these? http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Pressing/Jaws2.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=3559

Thanks in advance for any advice/suggestions!
Nick
Author:  PeterF [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
I fretted my first two with a hardwood caul and a g clamp to press it down. It worked ok but was a bit slow.

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2
Author:  klooker [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
My first 2 I fretted using a large Bessey clamp and a wooden caul.

I've since moved to a 5 oz. Stanley Proto dead blow hammer (thanks Todd Stock) which works great as long as your fret wire is accurately bent.

The pic shows them all together with the block plane for scale.

Kevin Looker

edit
Getting a good fret wire bender made the biggest difference in fretting for me.
Author:  emoney [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
While I've yet to begin my first acoustic build, I have done several solid body electrics and for me, the dead blow hammer
is still the most effective. I have a caul for my drill press and it is handy for doing a board, off the neck, but I still find there's
quite a few spots needing the hammer when I'm done.

As for the bench top drill presses; I started with the smallest one and was NOT happy with it's abilities. However, and forgive
me for not knowing the sizes as the moment, when I moved up in size, I'm happy and have been building solid bodies with it
for a couple years now. I think the 1st one was a 17inch 5 speed and it didn't cut the mustard, but the 20", 12speed has worked
just fine. I remind you, however, that this has all been solid body building.

A drill press is pretty handy when you pick up sanding attachments, and there's no way to beat drilling a true hole, of course. If
I had to do it all over again, however, I would've spent more time looking for a used one on either Craigslist or in local pawn shops.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Thanks for the replies!

Eric,
Quote:
I had to do it all over again, however, I would've spent more time looking for a used one on either Craigslist or in local pawn shops.
I''ll bear this in mind when I choose a drill press, I did have my doubts about the smaller ones... I have asked a school teacher I know to talk to the guy who maintains their workshop tools about finding a solid second hand unit, so maybe he'll come through.

Kevin,
I did make a fret bender for the last few frets on my last build (foolishly late) and it did help. I also used a deadblow hammer though I don't know if it was as effective as the one you, Todd, and I believe, Cumpiano, use. Maybe I just need to refine my technique, but I'm really tempted to buy a small f clamp and those arbor cauls and try to make a "Jaws 2".

Peter,
I'm prepared for it being a bit slow. I feel like I had to use a few too many hammer blows for my liking last time. I used Stewmac frets and that "Sheffield Steel" fret saw, and it felt to me like I could've done with a smaller tang or a with a wider kerf.

Kevin and Peter,
Do you think the fret cauls I linked above are a worthwhile upgrade over your hardwood cauls? I suppose, even if I don't get that working nicely, I'll still have them for using in a drill press one day. And an extra f clamp. Can't really lose?

Cheers to all!
Author:  klooker [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Those cauls look like the ones that Stewmac sells.

I bought a set but didn't find them as easy to use as I had hoped. You still need to tap in part of the fret unless you can pull off the balancing act of holding the fret straight & plumb then bringing down the caul without having the fret tip over.

The Bessey clamp that I posted a pic of has enough plastic padding on the jaws that you don't have to use a caul.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Quote:
I bought a set but didn't find them as easy to use as I had hoped

Hmmm, that's kinda what I was worried about. Tapping them in a bit first doesn't seem like too much hassle but maybe I'm just over-complicating things. And my f clamp mod would lack the stabiliser thumbscrews of "Jaws 2" so the balancing act will be even more of an issue!

Thanks, Kevin!
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
I use a 1/2 ton arbor press from HF and made a caul for it. Stores away easily.


http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsea ... op+Presses
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
[quote="PeterF"]I fretted my first two with a hardwood caul and a g clamp to press it down. [quote]
I also do that after hammering them in, and with the caul set so that I can get at the edge of the fret with a pipette, I run in thin CA glue. I generally am working on 3 or more necks at a time so the process keeps rolling and does not waste much time. The caul I use is about 4 or 5 inches long, with the correct radius of course. I don't use variable radius boards so it's not a problem.
Tom
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
If you don't want to go to the expense of a decent drill press, this would be up to the job http://www.axminster.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=arbor+press but a decent drill press is so useful for many things I would definitely recommend getting one.
FWIW, I do use a large drill press, supporting the table with a block of wood. I fret the FB off the guitar.
I tap in the slightly overbent fret (with glue in the slot), especially at the ends to ensure it stays upright. Then seat it with the fret press caul. I like pressing because it minimizes the number of hammer hits, which tend to deform the fret. (I'm still working on my technique!)
I made my own because I use a conical fret board, the "story" is here -
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35575&p=467688&hilit=+fret+press+caul#p467688
Author:  cphanna [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Hey, Nick,
Of course, it ultimately comes down to what works best for you. There is another option that I might have overlooked in my very quick scan of the responses: You could use a caul (even a home made caul) and a dead blow hammer to tap in the frets. This would be pretty quick, and it wouldn't leave any hammer dents on the frets. For amateur building like you and I do, it could work just fine. Perhaps not so well for guys who are on a professional building schedule. I experimented with this very idea recently, using a maple caul, which was only strong enough to do one fret board. Then it split. Probably due to the way I oriented the grain on my caul. But my point is that a home made or store-bought metal caul would probably work just fine with a hammer for a few instruments a year. Just my thoughts.
Patrick
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
If you're getting significant denting on your fret, you're doing it wrong. But I will say my very first fret job had lots of dent but as time went on the dents got less and less. The dents will always be there, it's just a matter of how much.

One key to hammering is having a solid support. If the fingerboard is not well supported the fret will not seat, and another thing is sufficient depth in the slot... I'd say most of the problem is caused by not having enough slot depth. Also a loose fitting slot will cause problems as well so sometimes, if the slot is too loose you may need to use a fret tang sizing tool to expand the tang, or compress them if the fit is way too tight. Then you should use some glue to lubricate the slot, and also to keep the frets in.

Problem I have with drill press is the fret should fit in the slot fairly tight, otherwise it will just pop back up.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Tai, I didn't get any denting with the deadblow hammer, it just took more like 10 taps to get them in rather than 5. And they were probably more like whacks than taps! One thing I will do next time is spread a bead of Titebond for lubrication. That may have been where I was going wrong.

Patrick, That's a good point, I'll have to give it a go! And another reason to get the cauls!

Colin, Clay, The arbour will only be used for this one thing, so I may put that money aside and wait till I can get the drill press. (Or pillar drill, I keep getting told off for being too American when I say drill press! ;))

Colin, I'm still not sure how your caul works with a conical fretboard... I used a 16" last time but plan on using "compound" fretboards now. Just by planing a bit off the edges and smoothing with a sanding beam. I didn't think that through properly, maybe these cauls would be no good for that anyway.


Great tips from all! Many thanks.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
The glue helps but it's not the only factor. If you were having to really whack them in it suggests that it was the wrong sized kerf and/or there wasn't something solid enough under the Neck.
I have something similar to one of those Stewmac Neck supports and it makes a big difference whether I place it in the middle of the bench or over one of the legs - the extra support of the bench leg being much better.
The real problem comes over the body, which is another subject!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Yeah, I think it was the wrong size kerf, but I did buy the saw and the frets from Stewmac so I thought I'd be ok there!

Maybe I wasn't supporting the neck well enough, I may get/make a neck support like that. I had it in a padded vice last time, which, thinking about it now, probably wasn't the best way to do it.

Over the body kinda petrified me on my first guitar! For the second, I fretted after gluing the board to the neck, and made a little mortised block to bolt it to and provide support for the extension. Fretting before gluing is really appealing to me now. Just need to work out a clamping arrangement!

Anyone press frets with Stewmac style cauls and a "compound radius" fretboard?
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Running a file over the fret slots to soften the edge slightly can sometimes help the frets go in easier.
Author:  martintaylor [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Clay S. wrote:
Running a file over the fret slots to soften the edge slightly can sometimes help the frets go in easier.

+1 on that! I use an old saw sharpening file. Works a treat.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
That's another thing I didn't do! Will definitely remember that next time!

The reason I'm bothering you all about the cauls is that I'm trying to keep extraneous purchases to an absolute minimum. My impulsive way is to buy things first and think later and I've often ended up with the wrong thing for no good reason! Just trying to curb my ways! :)

(How on Earth have I got to 380 post in such a short time?! People are going to mistake me for someone with experience! :lol:)
Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
I've used my larger drill press for pressing on the last 50 or so guitars. Works perfectly fine. I also have a 2 ton arbor press but I've not got around to drilling the press to accept the caul yet.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Nick Royle wrote:
That's another thing I didn't do! Will definitely remember that next time!

The reason I'm bothering you all about the cauls is that I'm trying to keep extraneous purchases to an absolute minimum. My impulsive way is to buy things first and think later and I've often ended up with the wrong thing for no good reason! Just trying to curb my ways! :)

(How on Earth have I got to 380 post in such a short time?! People are going to mistake me for someone with experience! :lol:)


Hard to beat a hammer for minimal spend. In fact mine was the cheapest Chinese hammer one could possibly buy! I annealed the head, domed and highly polished the striking surface. I've looked at the frets using magnification and can't see any marks that shouldn't be there.
Don't forget that countless thousands of Guitars have been made with hammered frets. It's just a matter of getting all the factors correct.
Fretting off the Neck solves hammering frets over the body but it does mean that you need to be very accurate with the blank board and it's fit to the Neck.
You can also cut a slightly wider fret slot and tap/glue them in. You will need to clamp them as well, so you will need a shaped caul on cambered fretboards.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Those are exactly the reasons I thought I would stick to fretting after gluing, guess I momentarily forgot that. I'll stick with that method I think... And maybe I should stick to hammering too. Or tapping. I could spend that money on a strop (don't have any suitable leather), or maybe one of those low profile fret saws, seems weird to have such a big saw for cutting such shallow slots.

I'm sure it has plenty going for it but gluing frets doesn't appeal to me.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Gluing frets works very well. I use fish or HHG in a wider kerf. I glue and clamp in frets when I'm using a very thin Ebony fret board - I had a couple crack when hammering in frets near the soundhole. It was the obvious thing to do when faced with a board that is just over 3 mm's thick. I also noticed that when hammering frets in such a thin board (off the Neck) a huge back bow is introduced but it also cups across it's width. Gluing and clamping eliminates those problems. Hardly any back bow. It does take a lot longer to fret though. The frets can be removed (if necessary) with a soldering iron and damp cloth.
On much thicker boards I hammer. I don't have to use glue on those.
The fret in the foreground has been glued with Fish glue in a slightly wider slot. The fret in the background has been hammered into a standard sized kerf. It's quite clear which version has the better holding power.

Image
Author:  Nick Royle [ Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fret pressing cauls - drill press or....
Thanks for the info, Michael, very convincing. My opinion has softened if not reversed! :)
For thin fretboards it makes perfect sense. I'm learning more and more every day on this forum!

Cheers!
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