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european finger board http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41762 |
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Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | european finger board |
A freiend has asked me to make a guitar from all European woods. Inevitably, I'm stuck on the finger board and gridge. Checking out data on the Wood Data Base I've come up with the idea of using Pear. Questions are these: Is pear a good choice? Why is always so bloody hard to buy anything in the UK? Any Brits know of a source for suitable pear wood? Anyone have any other suggestions? |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Hornbeam would be another option. |
Author: | ernie [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Pear too soft. I just made a tenor FB using american hornbeam , used for plane bodies in europe.Olivewood if you can find it, or yew is good too. |
Author: | StevenWheeler [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Both would be good choices Joe. I believe pear dyed black was used quite often in 19th century European stringed instruments. Contact Colin Symonds, ColinS on this forum or over at LuthierCom.org. He is in the UK and uses quite a bit of pear as trim on his guitars. Steve |
Author: | jonwallace [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
I've used bog oak on a couple of instruments - it's hard and can be very dark brown or black. On the downside, it can be deep grained and a little brittle. I can dig out some photos if you're interested. I've also got some native hornbeam, but I'm not sure how such a light coloured timber will look, so I haven't used it yet. |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
On the wood data base it give the janka hardness as: pear 7,380N european hornbeam 7,260N African ebony 14,320 so it would seems that pear was harder than hornbeam, or am I misleading myself that the janka hardness relates to the woods possible performance as a fingerboard? Hornbeam was my first, instinctual choice as it's reputed to be hard, like horn. |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Thanks, Steven, I'll do that. Jon, do you want to sell any of your hornbeam? |
Author: | jonsse [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
http://www.exotichardwoods.co.uk/ This guy has everything. |
Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
I've been trying to address this very issue for a few years. I'm pretty sure that Pear will indent more than Hornbeam. The 'problem' with both of those woods is the light colour. A dye or stain is OK but if you nick the fretboard when shaping the Neck etc you are left with a problem. Dyes do not penetrate very far into hard woods unless you use pressure dyeing. Pressure cookers aren't big enough and home rigged affairs can be very dangerous. Without pressure you'll be lucky to get it to go much deeper than 0.2 mm's. Putting a dark coloured trim/edging on the fretboard is one solution. The other is to use Bog Oak or Beech/Oak and cook it in the oven. Both woods are hard enough for fretboard purposes. You can quite easily get it to a Rosewood shade, especially the Oak. The colour goes deep. Oak has large pores but they can be filled, you don't really need to fill them to the usual standard either. I've cooked AB.Walnut (for head plates, not fretboards) and obtained a pretty convincing Black! Wrap the stuff in foil and place a tray of water in the oven. As ever, test first. Let the wood sit in the workshop before using it. Just make sure it isn't going to crack/warp badly. |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Michael.N. wrote: I've been trying to address this very issue for a few years. I'm pretty sure that Pear will indent more than Hornbeam. The 'problem' with both of those woods is the light colour. A dye or stain is OK but if you nick the fretboard when shaping the Neck etc you are left with a problem. Dyes do not penetrate very far into hard woods unless you use pressure dyeing. Pressure cookers aren't big enough and home rigged affairs can be very dangerous. Without pressure you'll be lucky to get it to go much deeper than 0.2 mm's. Putting a dark coloured trim/edging on the fretboard is one solution. The other is to use Bog Oak or Beech/Oak and cook it in the oven. Both woods are hard enough for fretboard purposes. You can quite easily get it to a Rosewood shade, especially the Oak. The colour goes deep. Oak has large pores but they can be filled, you don't really need to fill them to the usual standard either. I've cooked AB.Walnut (for head plates, not fretboards) and obtained a pretty convincing Black! Wrap the stuff in foil and place a tray of water in the oven. As ever, test first. Let the wood sit in the workshop before using it. Just make sure it isn't going to crack/warp badly. Michael, does it need to be black? |
Author: | TRein [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Plum wood is very hard, compact and beautiful. Boxwood might be hard to find in a large enough size for the fingerboard but the bridge should be easy. Both of these are harder than pear. |
Author: | ntredwell [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Iv'e used both bog oak (see my newbie build thread) and am currently making a mandolin and using Laburnum for the fretboard which is also nice and hard. |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
TRein wrote: Plum wood is very hard, compact and beautiful. Boxwood might be hard to find in a large enough size for the fingerboard but the bridge should be easy. Both of these are harder than pear. That's a good call, thanks. The wood data base give janka hardness of plum at 6.900N. That's less than pear or hornbeam yet you say it's harder than both. WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THIS JANKA HARDNESS? |
Author: | Rodger Knox [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
It's an empirical test IIRC, that uses a standard steel ball and either measures the pressure required for a predetermined dent depth, or uses a standard pressure and measures the dent depth. The Janka hardness may not be a good indication of wear resistance, but it's probably the best indication we have. |
Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
I didn't state that it needed to be Black, dark is good enough. Obviously light coloured woods will quickly show dirt and grime though. Pear is usually a Pinkish/light Brown, I've used it on a Vihuela. I don't think it was the best choice. Laburnum I've also used and that's not a bad option as it oxidises to Rosewood type Brown. Limited widths though and not easily available, same with Plum. You can get these woods but obtaining a regular supply, fairly straight grained, knot free - isn't so easy. |
Author: | Joe Sallis [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Michael.N. wrote: I didn't state that it needed to be Black, dark is good enough. Obviously light coloured woods will quickly show dirt and grime though. Pear is usually a Pinkish/light Brown, I've used it on a Vihuela. I don't think it was the best choice. Laburnum I've also used and that's not a bad option as it oxidises to Rosewood type Brown. Limited widths though and not easily available, same with Plum. You can get these woods but obtaining a regular supply, fairly straight grained, knot free - isn't so easy. That's true Michael. Any suggestions for suppliers in UK? Rodger Knox wrote: It's an empirical test IIRC, that uses a standard steel ball and either measures the pressure required for a predetermined dent depth, or uses a standard pressure and measures the dent depth. The Janka hardness may not be a good indication of wear resistance, but it's probably the best indication we have. Thanks for that, Rodger. So pear might well be the best choice so far. Olive was a good suggestion but I was put off by it's unstability. Thanks to all those who have suggested oak. I'm using oak for back and sides so I want a different wood for FB. If it was bog oak could work though. We'll see... |
Author: | PeterF [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
And now you see why it's so hard to build guitars in the UK - it sometimes seems like we have no wood here apart from oak... ![]() |
Author: | Greg B [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Well, you have got lots of shrubberies... ![]() +1 on the boxwood and plum, or some combination of the two. BTW, I've used rock maple for fingerboards before, which is lighter in color than boxwood. Superthin superglue was soaked into it as a finish. It doesn't show grime at all. |
Author: | Dave White [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Joe Sallis wrote: Is pear a good choice? Why is always so bloody hard to buy anything in the UK? Any Brits know of a source for suitable pear wood? It might be but it might get dirty from the playing fingers. I've just finished this Terz guitar in Western Red Cedar/Figured pear with a figured pear fingerboard so we'll see how it fares: ![]() ![]() ![]() Bob Smith at Timberline (Exotic Hardwoods as in the link above) is your man. Quote: Anyone have any other suggestions? Bog oak (or "Sinker Red Oak" as the Americans would call it ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Dave White [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
PeterF wrote: And now you see why it's so hard to build guitars in the UK - it sometimes seems like we have no wood here apart from oak... ![]() Well apart from English Walnut, Yew, Sycamore, London plane, pear . . . ![]() |
Author: | TRein [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Joe Sallis wrote: TRein wrote: Plum wood is very hard, compact and beautiful. Boxwood might be hard to find in a large enough size for the fingerboard but the bridge should be easy. Both of these are harder than pear. That's a good call, thanks. The wood data base give janka hardness of plum at 6.900N. That's less than pear or hornbeam yet you say it's harder than both. WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THIS JANKA HARDNESS? I have used both European pear and English plum in lute construction. Pear is used for bridges and plum is used for pegs. Plum is way harder and dense than pear. I have used American hornbeam for a few things, but not in instruments. I don't know how European and American hornbeam differ, but English plum is harder than American hornbeam. |
Author: | PeterF [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Dave White wrote: PeterF wrote: And now you see why it's so hard to build guitars in the UK - it sometimes seems like we have no wood here apart from oak... ![]() Well apart from English Walnut, Yew, Sycamore, London plane, pear . . . ![]() Yeah but they're all fairly bland - there's not much in the way of amazingly figured/wild coloured wood like you can get in America. |
Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
You need to shop around more. They can all be obtained 'figured', some of it spectacular if you are prepared to pay for it. There's just a lot more of it in the US, for obvious reasons. Don't forget English Ash and Cherry. Much underrated IMO. |
Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Can you not use European walnut? They are dark and fairly hard. You could use maple too... if you like Fender style, the only problem is that it's really light. Stella makes all birch guitars that sounds fine, although the fingerboard has to be dyed black... |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: european finger board |
Why on earth does the guitar need to be made only from European woods? That's like telling a portrait artist they can only use half the colours available.... Tell the customer that you can't comply, but he can have Euro-wood for everything except the fretboard. Or make the fretboard out of delrin or something else.... Dave F. |
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