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Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic build
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41607		 Page 1 of 11
Author:  Duhjoker [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic build
Hi guys I would like to build the acoustic electric guitar pictured below. It's a thin line model. I've managed to find everything for a decent price except the side boards. I have looked all over and called and wrote several companies but nobody is interested in selling me just side boards. I really can't afford to pay over a hundred dollars for expensive back and side wood for an experiment that's just going to be painted black any way. Especially since I could break sides bending them. Any way before we get into the actual build, can someone help me procure affordable side wood pieces or list some alternatives that I can use. I would really appreciate it.

Image
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
I have a large stock of "orphaned" sides, over 40 different species. Do you have a certain wood in mind? If you are just going to paint the sides then being bookmatched wouldn't matter. If you want bookmatched sides I can help you there as well. The orphans are just less expensive.
Author:  SteveG [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
LMI sells practice sides- 2 sides for $12.00 :

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-wood/backs-sides

cheers
Author:  Duhjoker [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Really!!!!! You sir kick major ass!!! No book matched ends are not needed orphans will be fine. Are they long enough? I can't decide whether to go with sharps cutouts or bent ones. Also planning on going with a OM size or around a 15 inch base if that helps. Wanted to ask another question, can the backboard and sound board be made out of same material?

Please contact me by email so we can arrange an exchange on the orphaned sides.

Chuckwood0077@yahoo.com
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Jeremy, just curious - have you completed any other projects, or will this be a first? I ask because this is a bit ambitious for a first guitar.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
This will be my third guitar build. I have built two electrics and have proper woodworking skills.
Author:  naccoachbob [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Jeremy, having only built 3 and working on a 4th acoustic, I will defer to more experienced and real luthiers, but the top wood on an acoustic has a whole lot more effect on sound than it does on an electric - in my opinion. Spruces, Cedar, and only a few others really make decent sounding guitars. - again opinion.
Of course there are many other facets to building the guitar compared to the electric. But for a first build, I'd stick to Spruce. That's if your experiment is interested in the acoustic sound. If not, I dunno :)

Bob
Author:  Duhjoker [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
I was actually hoping to use some affordable Cedar soundboards I found online and what ever I could find for the sides. As far as the many facets of acoustic building I have done some studying and am planning to buy some plans to help me along, modified of course for the double cut out. I've also watched a few vids on side bending and was assured by a close friend and pro carpenter that we can make the bending jig. Tone and sound is very important after all I'm not just a builder I play too. So I will defer to the judgement of people that know better than me. I am willing to learn for those willing to teach. I may ask a few stupid questions though. So don't be afraid to correct me.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Ok I decided to go ahead and spend a few extra dollars and go with the spruce top and bottom. I also had a maple double cut out style 25.5 neck. But now I'm having a new problem and need some professional advice. I decided I would like to build the guitar in the pic above to the exact dimensions. Which are::

Thinline acoustic/electric guitar::
0verall length:: 37"
Lower body width:: 13.5"
Upper body width:: 11"
Body thickness:: 2.5"
Body length:: 17"
Neck length:: 17.75"
Frets:: 20

Ok I looked up the size dimensions and it's a 0(zero) size guitar. I measured it out to be 25.5 scale all seems fine there. It looks to me like a 14 fret size 0 that's been modified to have double cutouts. Does this seem right to you guys?

Also I had a question about bracing. I intend to make my own braces using the dimensions that come with most plans. I've got chisels and files plus I want to do as much as I can on my own. My question concerns the height of the braces off the wood. I tried to measure the braces in my Starcaster and they seem to be around and inch high give or take. Is the height of the braces going to be a problem on such a thin guitar? Would I make them shorter? How do braces affect tone? Like I said I'm willing to learn so please teach me. And thank you.

Oh and can someone point me to some plans for sale for a 14 fret size 0?
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Or size 00 might be easier. What do you think?
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
There are lots of searches you can do on here to find out more but the height of braces and the profile you carve them to can increase stiffness and reduce mass.

My advice would be to adapt the bracing on the Grellier 00 plan, only because I used that plan for my last guitar and I'm incredibly pleased with the sound. I have only built two acoustics though, so maybe others can recommend better.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Yes I was looking at the grellier 00 plans. Looks cool but can anyone tell me how big I would have to print the plans out to?
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Well I tried to email Chris on the size of the plans but it seems his email is no longer valid. So Nick can you tell me how big to print out the plans please. Thank you.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Full size. A0. Take it to the print shop and get printed on a plotter.... Though I never printed the full plan, I just printed out the body with bracing and got measurements as and when I needed them from a small a4 printout... I also printed the bracing radii on smaller sheets. Maybe not advisable to not have the full plan on paper but it worked for me. I built free form and bent the sides on a hot pipe so the actual guitar differs very slightly from the plan. I just made sure the body was "about" right and that all the neck measurments and bridge placement were perfect.

I ended up thinning the top more than I meant to, so rather than 2.8mm, I reckon it ended up closer to 2.6 or 2.7. I also used slightly lighter bracing. I used Newtone low tension strings (12-51) on it and I think it sounds beautiful (but then I'm biased! :)). Oh and I did a barrel bolt, bolt on mortise and tenon neck rather than the dovetail. I'd advise using a larger bridge plate but maybe others would disagree.

Just remember, when you print the plans on a plotter, to check all the measurements with a good ruler!
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Take the PDF of the plan on a flashdrive to a Staples/Office Depot/Office Max/FedEx Kinkos and have them print it full size on their plotter. Take a digital caliper along and confirm a few of the fret distances to make sure the plotter is calibrated before you leave.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Ok sooooo.. I called the nearest printshop with a plotter big enough to print the full size plans which happens to be Fedex Kinkos. And they said that 1 when I open the PDF file tells how big it is. I have no idea if that is true because I own an iPad an iPhone not a computer and when I open the file on either it don't say $#!+. And two I would need the exact size. So I did what I did when I measured the template for my Bastard V build and pulled it up on the iPad, enlarged it where the 53mm mark is on the neck to 53mm then very carefully using different pieces as reference points measure and went completely across border to border up/down left/right. And came up with a grand total of:::

Width:: 81.4 centimeters or 31.9902" inches
And
Length:: 685 centimeters or 269.205" inches

Let me tell you it was a major pain in the posterior. Three checks to assure acuracy. And twice it shrunk on me because my OS kept trying to Copy the file. But worth it.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
A0 = 1189 x 841mm

They just need to select "Do not scale" and press print... Once you make a few measurements with your calipers, you'll know how accurately calibrated their plotter is. Chances are it will be fine. There are lots of measurements on the plan to choose from when checking.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Duhjoker wrote:
Ok I decided to go ahead and spend a few extra dollars and go with the spruce top and bottom. I also had a maple double cut out style 25.5 neck. But now I'm having a new problem and need some professional advice. I decided I would like to build the guitar in the pic above to the exact dimensions. Which are::

Thinline acoustic/electric guitar::
0verall length:: 37"
Lower body width:: 13.5"
Upper body width:: 11"
Body thickness:: 2.5"
Body length:: 17"
Neck length:: 17.75"
Frets:: 20

Ok I looked up the size dimensions and it's a 0(zero) size guitar. I measured it out to be 25.5 scale all seems fine there. It looks to me like a 14 fret size 0 that's been modified to have double cutouts. Does this seem right to you guys?

Also I had a question about bracing. I intend to make my own braces using the dimensions that come with most plans. I've got chisels and files plus I want to do as much as I can on my own. My question concerns the height of the braces off the wood. I tried to measure the braces in my Starcaster and they seem to be around and inch high give or take. Is the height of the braces going to be a problem on such a thin guitar? Would I make them shorter? How do braces affect tone? Like I said I'm willing to learn so please teach me. And thank you.

Oh and can someone point me to some plans for sale for a 14 fret size 0?


Just to clarify.....you aren't planning to use spruce for the back as well as the top, are you? Spruce is pretty soft and I think would get badly damaged being played against zippers and buttons, even with finish on it. Maybe I misunderstood your first statement in this quote.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Yes actually I was planning to use spruce as both the sound and back since this was my first Acoustic build and an experimental piece. I did just now test a piece of my spruce with my thumbnail and see what you mean about softness. I can always veneer the back I originally planned to veneer the front with a curly maple but I was planning on a classic starburst blue paint job with the back and sides being black and was gonna poly or nitro the crap out of it. Plus I'll be the one playing it and I baby all my instruments. I have a 20 yo well used Violin that is as beautiful as the day I bought it with no rosin stains. I hate seeing that too! To me its disrespectful. But any way. Will it matter to the quality of sound to add veneer?

Nick I see your measurements there but we have to remember I have to deal with barely trained employees of a chain store that don't really know what they are doing nor did they know what I meant by AO size. So exact measurements are a must. I will however do what you suggested but want to print my own measurements just in case along with it because it's 40 miles from my island home and making two trips is just a waste. I'm pretty sure of my calculations, I did use the measurements on the plans with my ruler to double check my work. I'm gonna quad and quintuple check everything to be sure. Thank you for your help I appreciate it.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
I have questions about binding. If I'm doing a blue starburst paint job all of the binding will be hidden. So do I need to bind? If I need to bind any way what do I choose as a material? Plastic or wood they both cost the same. And what about a binding trim bit. The only router bits for binding I have found are on stewmac and are very expensive. Can any point me to a router bit I can use for cutting a binding channel that's not so expensive. Or an alternative method. Also what kind of glue can I use for the binding? Something I can find at Home Depot or Walmart. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks guys.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
1) binding is more than decorative, it also protects the edges of the instrument from damage, and presents face grain instead of end grain to the environment. That said, there are plenty of unbound guitars out there. Many people who dye their instruments still like the look of contrasting binding and if you decide to do that, you need to either mask the binding or, if using plastic binding, you can carefully scrape the binding free of the finish.
2) user's choice on plastic vs wood binding. With plastic, you don't need a bending form and it's much more forgiving a process.
3) The glue you use for binding depends on the binding material. Something like Duco cement for the plastic, but for wood, wood glue (yellow or white like Titebond II) or Fish glue which gives a much longer open time allowing you to tweak the fit of your binding, or CA glue.
4) I use the StewMac router bit with their bearings. I don't think you want to cheap out on that because if you get side or top/back tearout, you may not be able to fix it.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
You don't have to bind, but as far as I've seen, it is rare for a sunburst to *completely* obscure the binding... It sounds to me like you should draw it out as best you can, preferably on a computer so you can change and refine the design. You may find that a contrasting binding will elevate your design. Draw it out. Use the L-00 plan and colour it in! :) Make sure to look at as many pictures of guitars you'd like t emulate, and see how they've done it.

Plastic binding is easier, and if you want jet black or pure white, it's a good choice. Wood binding is preferable to most, but not necessarily with your design. Once again, it helps to see it on paper (or screen).

Beth seems to have covered most everything else, but for an inexpensive (and so far for me, efficient) way to cut the binding channels is something like this, http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/bindingmachine.html. The guy who helped me build my first guitar used a similar setup but the one I made is closer to the KMG one.

Plan, plan, plan! :)
Author:  Duhjoker [ Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Oh yes I like to think ahead and plan accordingly.

My starcaster has a sunburst job on it and from what I can tell it has no binding. That's why I asked. I think I might try going with black plastic for ease on my first try and might just leave it visible, I do like details. I like the routing table jig, and the cool thing is the table is already built. All I have to is make the jig. Thanks a bunch on that one.
Author:  Duhjoker [ Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
After two days I have finally measured out two sets of plans in SAE so I can get them printed. I wish this country move away from the kings rule and join the rest of the world with the metric system. Much more accurate. Any way I did the best I could. They don't have to be perfect and the only reason I need the plans printed was for the shape. Everything else I can use the measurements to make. Ok question time.

Ok my neck came today and I still have a lot of work to do on it. Heel needs chopping down to correct sides width. Have to put a tanon(?) in it. It extends to twentieth fret so I need to make to the 14th fret. And now for the question. In the pic below are my neck and traditional adjustable truss rod. I got the truss from stewmac of course. It's got the end with no threads you have to use a dye on. Now I know I have to make a bigger notch at the top to allow the adjustment and also to catch the washer. But how exactly do I do the bottom end. Do I make a notch somewhere toward the bottom of the neck for the cylinder nut to fit in or do I make it go all the way to bottom of neck and have it hanging out? The only references I can find on truss rod installation are either for double adjust rods or non adjust. Also do I fill the left over gap with a wood strip? I saw that in a PRS vid with a double adjuster. This is my first neck build also so I could use any help I can get.

Image
Author:  Nick Royle [ Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help building and finding supplies for first acoustic bu
Sorry, I've not used one of those truss rods. Mine are a square section that fit nicely in the routed slot. And I do glue a "spline"(?) or wood "cap" on mine. Someone else can advise you better.

You need to draw your nut, or 0 fret line, measure carefully, mark out your tenon, and choose how to cut it. Going well, you're making progress already! :)

(And I agree, why America clings on to imperial measurements I'm not quite sure. I work in both fine but can't see how imperial is better. Suppose no one wants change.)
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