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CA glue durability
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41363		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Michaeldc [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  CA glue durability
I gave Robbie's CA binding technique a try yesterday and really liked it. It's quick and easy!

My only concern is how well CA holds over time. It would be a real bummer to find the bindings in a neat little pile on the floor or in the case...

Thoughts?

Michael
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
I once made a "temporary", "test it out", "not sure if this will work", sharpening aid for my plane blades. It involved some magnets inlaid into a piece of oak and two popsicle sticks affixed to said piece of oak to align the blade during sharping on wet/dry paper. After near daily use over two years later in wet conditions the popsicle sticks are still holding on strong. The couple of drops of CA glue and accelerator used to hold it all together have impressed me quite a bit.
Author:  Randolph [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
Tom Ribbecke told me a number of years ago, when he worked for Luthiers Mercantile that he knew of another luthier that assembled an entire guitar using only CA. It held perfectly for a number of years and was still good when he told me the story. He said that there are some glues that are simply better for certain applications (hide glue for bridges, trite bond for top plates etc.) or we might be using CA for whole instruments.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
I have never seen any indication that CA is not durable. I remember Rick Turner, a very experienced builder, saying he has used CA to glue bridges on for years with no failures.
Author:  Michaeldc [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
Sounds like I'll need to find something else to worry about! Shouldn't be too hard...

Thanks for the input!
Author:  Greg B [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
FWIW, CA is not considered to have long term durability by museum conservationists. I don't have a reference right now, but google should turn it up with a bit of work. As a practical matter in this application, it's probably not worth worrying about, as it's a low stress joint with plenty of area, and it's also sealed in under the finish.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
Filippo Morelli wrote:
The museum aspect has been discussed before on the Olaf. If one searches the archives I'm sure one would find the thread.

The fundamental issue is one of time. Simply hide glues have demonstrated adhesion for over 1000 year period. It's pretty hard for a 60 year old blue to have demonstrated adhering for 1000 years…

Filippo


And dogs won't lick all the glue out if it's CA :)

I know a guy who made a whole Les Paul with CA in the early eighties and it's been strung up and in use since then.
Author:  Michaeldc [ Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
I like the thought of something I made being around long after I'm gone.

Creating Art to create art...

M
Author:  Bjornstad [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
On the other hand ca is very toxic.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
Bjornstad wrote:
On the other hand ca is very toxic.


Myth
Author:  John Arnold [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
Quote:
No long-term sensitization issues as with epoxies or some other materials.

I suppose I am a rare case, but the allergic reaction that I had with CA fumes was so extreme that I had a full-blown asthma attack on a couple of occasions. It took several years to get to that point, but I would definitely call it a form of 'sensitization'. A respirator helped, but I still had extreme discomfort in my eyes from the fumes. My only recourse was to stop all exposure, or to use only odorless CA.
I think the main reason there is doubt about the durability of CA comes from the extremely fast cure time.
I use CA where I used to use epoxy for two reasons.....it never swells up, and it never fails to set because it didn't get mixed right.
I suppose I have repaired several hundred guitars where the epoxy filler in the fingerboard inlays failed by swelling.
Author:  RNRoberts [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
I'm not aware of any documented toxicity or allergic sensitivities. I believe it is a straightforward irritant, and a pretty strong one to mucous membranes.

A fan blowing across your work area will do wonders for avoiding the irritant effects to eyes etc.

Not much of anything will protect you from leaving the cap off a two ounce bottle, knocking it over but not noticing because you are so focused on the job at hand until you feel the burn of your t-shirt gluing to your stomach and your feet to your socks, sandals ( yes, I know... I'm so fashion conscious), and the floor, and then resting your hand on the puddle on your workbench as you try to simultaneously pull your shirt over your head as well as kick off your shoes. And of course you will have to wait an hour and a half for your wife to come home and discover you glued in place with your shirt stuck to your hair and you calmly ask her to hand you the solvent that has been about 6 inches out of reach all this time.
Author:  Eric Reid [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
No long-term sensitization issues as with epoxies or some other materials.

I suppose I am a rare case, but the allergic reaction that I had with CA fumes was so extreme that I had a full-blown asthma attack on a couple of occasions. It took several years to get to that point, but I would definitely call it a form of 'sensitization'. A respirator helped, but I still had extreme discomfort in my eyes from the fumes. My only recourse was to stop all exposure, or to use only odorless CA.
I think the main reason there is doubt about the durability of CA comes from the extremely fast cure time.
I use CA where I used to use epoxy for two reasons.....it never swells up, and it never fails to set because it didn't get mixed right.
I suppose I have repaired several hundred guitars where the epoxy filler in the fingerboard inlays failed by swelling.


From what I read, you are a rare case. The medical boys seem to be surprised when they encounter CA sensitivity. But it happens, and you are the second prominent luthier to mention it. Don Teeter complained about CA sensitivity in the 70's. Maybe guitar repair is an unusual exposure.

CA doesn't swell, but it does shrink. Any surface repair with CA needs to allow time for shrink back.
Author:  Eric Reid [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
double post
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA glue durability
One reason I have stopped using it for binding, is its brittleness. I've seen hard knocks separate relatively large pieces, but I'm sure the better the fit, the less of an issue this is.

As for durability, I wonder how that brittleness will handle wood's movement over time. Even if the glue itself doesn't degrade, will that movement cause fractures, fatigue or some other failure of the the cured glue, that will compromise the joint? When guitars build with CA can hold up for decades, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem, but given enough time, who knows?

I use CA for pore filling, and the fumes are so bad that I usually do it outside. I often do more than one instrument at a time, and I have a feeling I'm getting more sensitive to it than I used to be. Perhaps its not toxic, but it sure is irritating! I'll have to order some of that odorless next time
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