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Ryan 7 foot back radius http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40955 |
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Author: | pthes [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Discovered today that Kevin Ryan builds all his guitars with a 7 foot back radius. Has anyone tried this? Just looking for a general discussion of pros and cons versus the typical radius of 15 foot or thereabouts. |
Author: | ernie [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
I asked luthier bill moll in sgfld MO/ why he uses it, because of the wide fluctuations in humidity he puts that 7 ft radius on his backs to countereffect the high humidity in summer 60 + and less than 30 in winter , seems to do the trick in places where there is signifigant humidity changes . Have not tried it so far, but he did suggest it to me , because of the warping I get from some backs esp . local !/4 sawn sycamore. |
Author: | dberkowitz [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Before you get enamored with Kevin's back, keep in mind it makes binding the back VERY hard, particularly on venetian cutaways. |
Author: | pthes [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
dberkowitz wrote: Before you get enamored with Kevin's back, keep in mind it makes binding the back VERY hard, particularly on venetian cutaways. At this point I'm merely curious and particularly the difficulties that arise from using a tight radius back, so I'm glad to see comment regarding the increased difficulty in binding. |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
One of the biggest obstacles to overcome will be people always saying you copied Kevin's design. |
Author: | ZekeM [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
^^tony, wise words |
Author: | unkabob [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
I presently use 15 ft. radius dish for both back and soundboard. I have been toying with the idea of an 8.5 ft. dish for mandolas. Anybody tried anything in this direction. Bob ![]() |
Author: | pthes [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Tony_in_NYC wrote: One of the biggest obstacles to overcome will be people always saying you copied Kevin's design. My question was a technical one and nothing more. I do not want to switch the conversation to one of ethics since the luthier world is full of copying. Only one person created x-bracing but the percentage of steel strings built with one is likely in the high 90s. Innovations such as armrests, side ports and wedge guitars are part of many guitars built by people on this forum but do the builders reference Grit Laskin or Linda Manzer? Some do, some don't. Just looking for pros and cons of a tighter radius on the back. If people have constructive input I welcome it. |
Author: | pthes [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Thanks for the comment Filippo. You have me curious about Manzer. She has info on her site saying she created it and how makers should reference her so that is where my comment came from. Some innovations have been around for 200 years and then someone "claims" it. I have no evidence but I heard that fan frets fall into that area. if you have info about pre-Manzer wedge guitars please share. |
Author: | dberkowitz [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Linda never demanded that anyone put a label on their guitar or website, rather she merely asked for an acknowledgement. By acknowledging other's contributions we make our own original work have more gravitas. Most of what we all build is borrowed. A handful of innovations are either completely new or refinements on historical work. Are you who are resistant to a simple acknowledgement so insecure in your own work that you cannot bring yourself to such a simple doff of the cap? Linda came by her work honestly. She was a lone woman in a man's world of luthierie, with no internet. There was no consensus on procedures or repair as there is today. There wasn't much of a library either -- the only texts were those written by Sloane, Young, Don Teeter, and despite their contributions, there was a paucity of information. She was a part of a group of young builders who together forged a new era in North American luthierie. She's earned everything she's worked for. All of you who sit behind your computers and act with such authority with less than a pinky of her experience or contributions to the guitar community and take designs from anyone you care without so much as a "hey, I like what you've done, do you mind...." have no business coming down on Linda. |
Author: | LanceK [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
dberkowitz wrote: Linda never demanded that anyone put a label on their guitar or website, rather she merely asked for an acknowledgement. By acknowledging other's contributions we make our own original work have more gravitas. Most of what we all build is borrowed. A handful of innovations are either completely new or refinements on historical work. Are you who are resistant to a simple acknowledgement so insecure in your own work that you cannot bring yourself to such a simple doff of the cap? Linda came by her work honestly. She was a lone woman in a man's world of luthierie, with no internet. There was no consensus on procedures or repair as there is today. There wasn't much of a library either -- the only texts were those written by Sloane, Young, Don Teeter, and despite their contributions, there was a paucity of information. She was a part of a group of young builders who together forged a new era in American luthierie. She's earned everything she's worked for. All of you who sit behind your computers and act with such authority with less than a pinky of her experience or contributions to the guitar community and take designs from anyone you care without so much as a "hey, I like what you've done, do you mind...." have no business coming down on Linda. All that AND she is super cool to boot! |
Author: | LanceK [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Note: I have never not seen Linda smiling. |
Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
The stiffer(less flex & a high resonance) the back-the less it takes from the top. Make a supple top & stiff back & sides. Mike |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Mike Collins wrote: The stiffer(less flex & a high resonance) the back-the less it takes from the top. Make a supple top & stiff back & sides. Mike That's one view. Another is that the back contributes complexity and by reducing the back's influence, the overall tone becomes less complex. Rather than taking from the top, the back contributes. Lessen it's influence and the top stands more alone. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
I keep my computer open on the workbench 'cuz I communicate a lot with customers on Facebook. Makes it easy to slap down a comment here and there between jobs and whatnot. |
Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
pthes .. fan frets in the 1600s ... |
Author: | Mike Collins [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: Mike Collins wrote: The stiffer(less flex & a high resonance) the back-the less it takes from the top. Make a supple top & stiff back & sides. Mike That's one view. Another is that the back contributes complexity and by reducing the back's influence, the overall tone becomes less complex. Rather than taking from the top, the back contributes. Lessen it's influence and the top stands more alone. I just find a stiffer B & S help with the tone,volume & projection My clients need. A loose(flexible) back is hard to control. And can really mess up a clear,clean sound. Mike |
Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
pthes wrote: Tony_in_NYC wrote: One of the biggest obstacles to overcome will be people always saying you copied Kevin's design. My question was a technical one and nothing more. I do not want to switch the conversation to one of ethics since the luthier world is full of copying. Only one person created x-bracing but the percentage of steel strings built with one is likely in the high 90s. Innovations such as armrests, side ports and wedge guitars are part of many guitars built by people on this forum but do the builders reference Grit Laskin or Linda Manzer? Some do, some don't. Just looking for pros and cons of a tighter radius on the back. If people have constructive input I welcome it. My comment was meant to be a joke, but I guess it could be taken seriously. I have innovated exactly zero point zero things with my guitars. Everything I do has been done before. Including my mistakes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 |
Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Mike Collins wrote: theguitarwhisperer wrote: Mike Collins wrote: The stiffer(less flex & a high resonance) the back-the less it takes from the top. Make a supple top & stiff back & sides. Mike That's one view. Another is that the back contributes complexity and by reducing the back's influence, the overall tone becomes less complex. Rather than taking from the top, the back contributes. Lessen it's influence and the top stands more alone. I just find a stiffer B & S help with the tone,volume & projection My clients need. A loose(flexible) back is hard to control. And can really mess up a clear,clean sound. Mike Well, as ever, it's not a case of just one type or the other. Both live and non-live backs have their very valid places. As I've said before, (and very simplistically) stiff backs give "volume" and live backs give "tone". Floppy backs (as Mike has suggested) kill both. It's a case of knowing what the alternatives offer and when to use them. For guitars played acoustically I generally use a live back with a 3m radius dome (that's about 10 feet). Not seven, but I wouldn't want to bind a back with a Venetian cutaway with a seven foot radius. 3m radius makes it difficult enough. The majority of my SS guitars have Venetian cuts. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
I'm not sure I said "loose floppy back". I just said the back's influence makes the tone more complex, and lessening it's influence makes the top's influence dominant. The back doesn't have to be loose and floppy to contribute. |
Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: I'm not sure I said "loose floppy back". Having checked back, I'm sure you didn't! I was just making the point. Both live and non-live backs work fine, which means giving them the right degree of stiffness for the job. I've seen/heard a few floppy backed guitars and acoustically they don't seem to do anything well. |
Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
OK, here's some more technical terminology: Live backs produce a T(1,1)3 resonance. Non-live backs don't produce a T(1,1)3 resonance. Floppy/loose backs have a T(1,1)3 < T(1,1)2 (which is not strictly correct use of the nomenclature, but those who know will understand ![]() Is that better? ![]() |
Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
" D T's" - delirium tremens - a.k.a. "shaking frenzy" ? ![]() |
Author: | joe white [ Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:36 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Trevor Gore wrote: Is that better?:lol: Not really. Filippo I'll say!! ![]() ![]() |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Ryan 7 foot back radius |
What he's saying is that a live (not floppy) back contributes frequencies making the tone character more complex. A floppy back will contribute wolf tones and tuning dissonances. |
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