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Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
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Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
I've only made a few posts, so "hello" to everyone! I often read here and I thought it was finally time I join in.

I built one guitar on a course with an English luthier in India (not sure if I'm allowed to say his name or business name?), and I'm just finishing my second build, the first I've made entirely on my own. My first build was a Martin 000 style guitar but with a Spanish heel neck, and my second/current one is a Gibson L-00 style built from the Grelier plan but with the "Cumpiano" bolt-on mortise and tenon neck.

I'm probably getting well ahead of myself but, having nearly finished my second build, my mind is wandering to the third. I'd love to hear some advice from anyone who can spare the time.

So far I've got excited about so many different projects, some of which include....

- Big bodied baritone guitar (really appealing)
- Traditional classical from an available plan (or attempt at Torres copy)
- Smaller body travel guitar with "Brunner style" removable neck
- Twin Ukuleles
- Kasha influenced variants of above
(I know that that's controversial - the offset soundhole to increase active soundboard area just really appeals to me. I'd love to be schooled as to why I'm wrong about that :))

Anyone got any strong feelings about the sort of guitar I could build next? Or thoughts on what the best learning experience might be? Only power tool I used for this build was a cheap router and I used a piece of scaffold and a blowtorch to bend the sides.

Maybe some would say I should just try to build another Gibson L-00 to refine my work before I more on to another design, but I get more excited by the idea of a baritone or a quality travel guitar that packs away small (maybe even with two interchangeable necks, one baritone and one standard). Getting ahead of myself?

Thanks in advance for any replies! I know there will be differing opinions but I'd love to know what others think.

Cheers,
Nick
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Thank you very much. That's what I was hoping to hear... I'm not a classical player but I do love the tones I produce on a classical, even with my simple style.

Would I be crazy to try a small bodied, classical with a Brunner style removable neck, and maybe even an offset sound-hole design? I love to travel, so a great guitar that packs down to half its size is a big plus. In fact, if I built that, there's a good chance it would live on a friends boat.

I suppose I'm just looking for affirmation... And maybe warnings lol

Thanks again.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Go for a Stauffer style Neck. It's a lot simpler, allows Neck angle adjustment and takes less than 30 seconds to remove once the string tension is off. It's basically one bolt and a Nut, adjusted with a clock key. It uses a floating fretboard.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
That's a really great suggestion. Thanks, Michael.

I shall have to do some research... It would be really fantastic if I could do a Brunner style neck on a travel guitar with the tilt mechanism! Do you think it could be made to work with a neck joint and two part bridge, like this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ewu2fsuOE? I suppose a Fender micro-tilt inspired design would be more suited to it.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Michael.N. wrote:
Go for a Stauffer style Neck. It's a lot simpler, allows Neck angle adjustment and takes less than 30 seconds to remove once the string tension is off. It's basically one bolt and a Nut, adjusted with a clock key. It uses a floating fretboard.


+1 for Stauffer. Really cool guitars in so many ways. Its on my list.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Nick Royle wrote:
That's a really great suggestion. Thanks, Michael.

I shall have to do some research... It would be really fantastic if I could do a Brunner style neck on a travel guitar with the tilt mechanism! Do you think it could be made to work with a neck joint and two part bridge, like this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ewu2fsuOE? I suppose a Fender micro-tilt inspired design would be more suited to it.


That style bridge should work with the Stauffer Neck joint, although of course I've never tried it. I don't see why it would not work though.
The Stauffer isn't quite as fast as that to dissemble, not that it takes an age. Of course it doesn't have to be the Stauffer body or bracing, that part can be totally different.
Forget Fender. You shouldn't be mentioning them when it comes to acoustics and adjustable Necks.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Quote:
Forget Fender. You shouldn't be mentioning them when it comes to acoustics and adjustable Necks.
Haha! Hence saying "inspired by"! I was thinking more of attempting to engineer some sort of of Stauffer/Micro-tilt combo with good surface contact. The Brunner design really appeals to me but the tilt function would be highly beneficial.

Once again, thanks a lot for the suggestion. It goes onto the list of possibilities and now you've got me reading about the Babicz and Doolin necks, too!
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Build what gets you excited to build. Some will be motivated by the desire to make a certain type of guitar and really refine their results. For them, it might be best to make the same thing for a while to control as many variables as possible. For me, I am more excited about bringing my ideas to life. I'm not trying to start a business, rather to just create what gets me interested in going down to the shop. I am probably slowing my learning process this way but right now this is just a hobby. . .
Author:  Nick Royle [ Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Thanks, Bryan. I think I'm going to follow your lead! I just wondered if anyone strongly advised against it.

I'm currently quite pleased with some plans I'm drawing for what is essentially a bigger, better, Cedar/Khaya Baby Taylor with a "Brunner style" removable neck and a "Doolin style" neck angle adjustment. If I do go ahead with it, it will be living on a small racing yacht where space is at a premium!
Author:  Chameleon [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
I was thinking something more like this

Image

But I guess a classical would be just as good.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
That is nice, but I'm not sure how well guitar making skills translate to basket weaving. . .
Author:  Nick Royle [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Haha! Another great suggestion... Well, a suggestion anyway.
Wonder what sort of tape tone a wickerwork hamper has? :)
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
I build travel guitars that have necks that unbolt and slip inside the body though a port in the endblock. I build them in most of the typical Martin sizes and patterns and have even built a harp guitar (contraguitar) in this fashion.
One of my favorites for portability is the Martin "size one" built with these features. with the neck secured inside the body it is very compact.
I generally leave these guitars assembled and at full sting tension. They can be stored in a typical gig bag and when disassembled for traveling the "neck" portion of the gig bag can be safety pinned to the body portion.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Hi Clay, thanks for that. I've seen a video (yours?) of that design and was impressed!
I'd love to ask a few questions If I may...

1. What kind of neck joint do you use?
2. Is there a two part bridge? If not, where do the strings go?
3. Is there enough space for a 14 fret neck?
4. Does the neck "slot in" somewhere inside the body to prevent rattling?
5. Have you got any photos you'd be willing to share? A picture being worth a thousand words and all that. :)

Thanks in advance,
Nick
Author:  nickinbruns [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Not for nothing. I wouldn't take a well made guitar any where NEAR a racing yacht. Bad environment for a good acoustic. Build one for dry land and buy a plywood(more stable) travel guitar for the yacht.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Thanks for the advice. That was my first thought, too; Plywood or CF... But a respected guitar tech I know showed me a replica of a 19th century parlor with an oil finish that had lived on a boat and was still in really good condition. Maybe I'll start a thread asking others and see if anyone has on here has done it successfully.

I think I'm willing to take the risk anyway. It will have neck angle adjustment so even if the neck moves, it could be easily remedied... Biggest problem I suppose would be the swelling/contracting of the wood in varying humidity, which will likely be more severe than for most guitars, so I may tighten the top and back radii slightly(?).

I've decided (I think) to follow the advice above and build what really excites me, so even though this is only my third guitar, I'm going to build what, to me, is an exciting "prototype" that combines the Brunner OG Basic neck attachment and the Doolin neck angle adjustment with a bit of a Spanish heel thrown in. I can't see any problems with my plan but maybe, at some point, you and/or others here could take a look at it before I take the plunge? I'm not going to be starting the guitar for about a month (work) but I'd like to enter the competition. Not to win, just to take part. :)

Funds for guitar making are limited right now so I'm going to be using fairly inexpensive tonewood. If it goes well, I can see myself building more of them, so I *think* it's a decent choice for #3, if slightly jumping the gun. But, heck, if I wasn't jumping the gun slightly it wouldn't be so exciting! I've done a classical neck and a Cumpiano bolt on, so I may as well do another!
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Nick Royle wrote:
Thanks for the advice. That was my first thought, too; Plywood or CF... But a respected guitar tech I know showed me a replica of a 19th century parlor with an oil finish that had lived on a boat and was still in really good condition. Maybe I'll start a thread asking others and see if anyone has on here has done it successfully.

I think I'm willing to take the risk anyway. It will have neck angle adjustment so even if the neck moves, it could be easily remedied... Biggest problem I suppose would be the swelling/contracting of the wood in varying humidity, which will likely be more severe than for most guitars, so I may tighten the top and back radii slightly(?).

I've decided (I think) to follow the advice above and build what really excites me, so even though this is only my third guitar, I'm going to build what, to me, is an exciting "prototype" that combines the Brunner OG Basic neck attachment and the Doolin neck angle adjustment with a bit of a Spanish heel thrown in. I can't see any problems with my plan but maybe, at some point, you and/or others here could take a look at it before I take the plunge? I'm not going to be starting the guitar for about a month (work) but I'd like to enter the competition. Not to win, just to take part. :)

Funds for guitar making are limited right now so I'm going to be using fairly inexpensive tonewood. If it goes well, I can see myself building more of them, so I *think* it's a decent choice for #3, if slightly jumping the gun. But, heck, if I wasn't jumping the gun slightly it wouldn't be so exciting! I've done a classical neck and a Cumpiano bolt on, so I may as well do another!


If you use the Doolin neck, change it so the neck adjusts from outside the body through the heel and not from the inside. Turns out it's a bit of a PITA to adjust the original inside version.
Author:  PeterF [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
There's a massive thread on the ANZLF about adjustable necks. Worth a read. http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=5& ... table+neck
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Thanks for the tip, Steve. Much appreciated. I have made the adjusters easily accessible, though some may find them a slight eye-sore. They're in between the 18th and 19th frets....

Rather than describe it, I may as well show it... Remember, it is only a very rough first draft, and I've got more than a month to refine it, so be gentle! I don't claim the neck angles, as drawn, to be correct. This is just a drawing really. Back of a cigarette-packet style. I probably shouldn't show it 'till I think it through properly and do a couple of tests, but what the heck, here it is....

Image

Essentially, it has a Brunner OG Basic neck attachment, but with two grub screw angle adjusters.

It has at least two obvious drawbacks: 1) The through-bolt may be perceived by some to be "inelegant", in fact, Lucas Brunner now uses a latch system instead; and 2) There isn't much wood-to-wood contact in the neck pocket. But there have been great guitars that have that problem to some degree, so I think it's worth a shot (I could even build twins: one with this travel neck and one with a traditional one, just to try to hear a difference).

Quick Summary:

- Body shape is a slightly minaturised OM.
- It has a 600mm scale length and, disassembled, will fit inside standard hand luggage sized bags and cases.
- The bolt passes through the neck block into a cross dowel (probably with maple dowels glued to secure it in place.
- The bottom section of the bridge fits into the top part with two small brass rods.
- The grub screws make contact with brass inserts
- The headblock is routed out to save weight.

If anyone at all can offer any advice, it would be most welcome and greatly appreciated. It will be kinda heartbreaking if everyone thinks it's terrible, but best to know at least. If someone could help me improve the design, I'd love to hear from you!

Thanks in advance,
Nick
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
I'm not familiar with the Brunner joint, but from your sketch it looks like the bolt through the heel adjusts the height of the neck and the screws throught the fretboard adjust the angle.
I don't see from the sketch how the joint will resist string tension. Remember there's 100+ pounds trying to shove the neck into the soundhole, and you have no heel to resist that force. Does the pivot rod extend all the way into slots(to allow vertical adjustment) in the headblock? Is the heel end of the neck seated against the headblock?
Author:  PeterF [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Rodger Knox wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Brunner joint, but from your sketch it looks like the bolt through the heel adjusts the height of the neck and the screws throught the fretboard adjust the angle.
I don't see from the sketch how the joint will resist string tension. Remember there's 100+ pounds trying to shove the neck into the soundhole, and you have no heel to resist that force. Does the pivot rod extend all the way into slots(to allow vertical adjustment) in the headblock? Is the heel end of the neck seated against the headblock?

I think that is very similar to what Greg Smallman does, only he adds a cosmetic heel to make it look more traditional. The string tension is keeping the neck pulled forward bearing against the small adjustment screws at the neck end and the bolt adjusts the overall height of the neck. I believe he uses a bolt that is adjustable through the soundhole, though, so it doesn't stick out the back. You'll probably want some carbon rods extending through the neck extension to keep it stiff enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... njZmPyugUQ
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Thanks for replying!

The set screws between fret 18 and 19 set the neck angle.

This is a video showing the Brunner neck attachment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ewu2fsuOE

And an expanded view of my sketch...

Image

I agree that it doesn't seem like much to resist the string tension but I've tried to move a Baby Taylor neck (with reasonable force) and the string tension actually seems to keep the heelblock end of the neck firmly seated on its bearing surface(s), so I'm fairly sure Brunner's would be the same.

What do you think?
Author:  PeterF [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Is this a classical btw? The posts above are a bit vague. If it is, you won't want x bracing.
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Good idea, Peter! And thank for the link to that thread. I've read the first few pages before, I'll have to read the whole thing. Where exactly do you suggest the carbon fiber rods go? In the same direction as the bolt?

The bolt doesn't actually adjust the height of the neck by the way, in my design at least, though I suppose it could. All the adjustment comes from the set or grub screws.

Any and all suggestions welcome!
Author:  Nick Royle [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nearly finished Number 2... What should Number 3 be?
Nope, steel string. Strong enough for mediums at least.
Though I'd love to hear any suggestions on how I could improve the bracing design.
Cheers
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