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Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 String
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Author:  Bill Hodge [ Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 String
So, what do y'all think about Cedar top 12 strings? Do they tend to get a bit muddy or rob from the clarity one would desire from a good 12 string?

Is it tough enough to hold up to the string torque if the top is perfectly quartered?
Would perfect rift be better? Large body? Small body? Or not at all?

I've noticed I cannot find any of the big name high end makers 12 string models with Cedar soundboards. At least not any that are newer than the past couple of decades so far as I've found. Is there a reason for that? I hate to waste a good guitar and a couple hundred hours if the Cedar is just not worth it.

If it is, large body, small body?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially anyone who may have built or worked on 12 string cedar tops to bring your info and thoughts to this matter. Al Carruth, what are your thoughts? Howard Klepper? Grumpy?

Lots of questions I know, but I'm curious about the answers to all of them. I appreciate your time and participation in advance, thanks!
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 String
I don't want to let this get out of sight, I'm seriously interested in the thoughts of others on this and hope to draw some quality input!
Author:  Mark Mc [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
Yes - you don't see it often, and that might be for a good reason.
I once played a Yairi cedar/rosewood 12. It looked great, had a nice smell (sorry - that is a fetish of mine), but it did sound a bit muddy, as you suggested. The 12-string sound should be about shimmering highs and good note separation, which is not something that cedar tops are noted for. Lowden has made some, but I also read that George Lowden has said that cedar is not ideal for 12-strings (hearsay - I can't authenticate that quote).

Then you have the structural issues. As you pointed out, cedar is not as stiff as spruce and would have a harder time standing up to the increased string tension. It might be OK for a smaller bodied style, but would become more of a problem with a drednaught or jumbo width top. It would certainly need to be a thicker top, and braced more heavily. And then you get back to a negative effect on the sound.

But there are no rules in this game. If you pull it off you would have quite a unique instrument that could be really cool.
cheers
Mark
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
Thanks for your input Mark, and Todd. The things that both of you mentioned are the very reasons I was thinking to it not be such a good idea. Just knowing the differences in the properties of Spruce and Cedar was enough to make me doubt that it would be worth the effort. There was a great article I read in one of the American Lutherie magazines in which several well renowned builders were interviewed regarding their thoughts on 12 string guitars. I remember it was a good read. Gonna have to find that and read it again. I have an old 1974 Yamaha 12 string that I absolutely enjoy and have kept it tuned E-E since I first purchased it in '84'. For a guitar I paid $100 to buy, it's been a great instrument.
Author:  Bob Matthews [ Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
I built a 12 string with a cedar top as a speculative guitar, it's 2 years old now and holding up perfectly fine.

I made it 12 frets to body - as 12 string guitars are rarely used in the higher registers - and this pushed the bridge more towards the tail. I increased the top thickness slightly and used stiffer bracing than my normal guitars. I also used Spanish cedar for the neck (another no-no) with carbon firbre re-enforcing, the neck is also still perfect.

As for sound, I certainly didn't hear any of the muddiness talked about, in-fact the guitar sparkles and chimes better than any factory guitar I have heard so I think you just have to adjust your design parameters to get the best out of the materials you are using.

The cedar top I used was particularly stiff though, oh and it is an OM sized body with a 15'' lower bout.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
OK Bob, that sounds like the formula for success - get a stiff bit of cedar, brace it well, put it on a smaller body and 12 frets to the neck joint. I've just written that down in the "book of future guitars".
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
You could add short scale to that list, too.
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
Bob, that's a great looking guitar, and a good report. The things you said you've done were things I had considered, but the concerns I expressed above are what's always stopped me to this point. I guess it's time to build an experimental for myself. The biggest problem I've had in the past about building one for 'me' is I never get to keep it. :D When you do this for a living, everything is for sale including the 'me' units! ;) But maybe this would be a 'me' unit I can finally keep. I've been a connoisseur of 12 stringers since I was 12 years old and that was.... well, a long, long time ago. I think I'll build one after the body style of the vintage Martin 000 12 fret. Now, how to schedule the time in shop for a 'me' guitar!?? :|
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
Todd Stock wrote:
We just had an ABG that used a salvage redwood top from David Maize...as stiff as some of the good red spruce I've had in, and no issue carrying the additional string tension. If looking for some complexity, but still want some volume and some snap, not a bad way to go.


Now THAT took some guts! How thick was the top? And was it a short or long scale?
Author:  Bill Hodge [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Yea? Nay? Do's? Dont's? Thoughts? Cedar top on a 12 Stri
Excellent! [:Y:]
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