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To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40731 |
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Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
I am building a new model for me. It is a not-to-big Jumbo. The lower Bout is 16-1/4 and the body length is 20-1/4. On my SJ model I do not tuck the lower x-braces. I am going for a sound similar to the SJ, mainly finger style but holds up ok to a pick. Maybe a bit more bass on this model? Should I tuck or not tuck? Does it matter? Thank you for your kind consideration. |
Author: | the Padma [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
To do or not to do. To be or not to be. Does it matter? Ya right. Do what thou wilt...is your wood and your shop. So... $hite or get of the pot. Ok lets get serious...is like dis...when you come to a fork in the road ~ take it! Then you will know. Simple eh. blessings ![]() PS: Say hi to Jerry Brown for me. Thanx ![]() . |
Author: | meddlingfool [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
I don't tuck the lower x's on anything.... |
Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
So basically it will matter very little if at all? |
Author: | Ken Franklin [ Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
I do it to help key in the top and as insurance for those who like to tap (pound) on the top. |
Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Ken Franklin wrote: I do it to help key in the top and as insurance for those who like to tap (pound) on the top. Same here. |
Author: | Herr Dalbergia [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
me not... |
Author: | Barry Daniels [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Yes, it matters. |
Author: | Tom West [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Joe: I think the importance does not lie in whether you tuck or not, as much as how high the tuck is where it enters the lining. I tuck all the time on the lower X just to register and keep the height of the brace at a minimum. This lets me locate during gluing and provides some insurance against the drummers. With this in mind my ends are no higher then about .050" at the lining. I have done ends quite a bit over this and after building loosened up the plate and improved the sound substantially by lowering the height at the ends. Just my experience with the whole thing. Tom |
Author: | Mike Collins [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
What Tom said. Mike |
Author: | Joe Beaver [ Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Interesting. So you tuck primarily for a little added strength? How would you say it affects the sound? Seems like a none tucked brace would make the top slightly looser giving it a little more bass response? Is the difference negligible? Padma, I gave Jerry a call and told him you said hello. He must have been confused. He just said, “Is he out already?” |
Author: | Dave Livermore [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
I tuck when I am after a particular tight sound. Otherwise, feather that lower X about a 1/2" frm the lining. |
Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
The rule I've always used is that, if the braces are not shaved away to nothing for some distance in from the edge, you need to inlet them. Braces usually run at least somewhat across the grain of the top, and softwoods are a lot stiffer along the grain than across. A brace that's anywhere near as tall as the top is thick will tend to be stiffer then the top at that point. If the brace is not inletted, and somebody knocks the top over the brace with a microphone, say (I know YOU would not do that, but it happens...) the top will bend and the brace will not. This puts a lot of peeling stress on the glue line, and glue is not good at that, so the brace will tend to peel loose. Back when I did more repairs I used to get in old Gibsons with loose or missing upper transverse braces. They used to scoop out the very end of the braces over a short distance with a sander, just about down to nothing. Rather than cutting pockets for the brace ends, they seem to have simply mashed everything down with clamps, counting on the brace end to compress the liner the small amount that was needed. Since both the bracing and the liner were spruce is happens every so often that the liner will be harder than the brace wood, and it's the brace end that gets crushed. This essentially severs the brace end just inside the liner, and eventually, with the download on it, it peels loose. In a couple of cases the player found the stick rattling around inside the box, and tossed it out. Then the action got really high.... The bottom line, then, is that whether you inlet the ends or not doesn't depend so much on the static load on the brace as it does the relationship be tween the brace and top stiffness. Of course, an UTB, which does have a pretty good down load on it, needs to be taller at the end, and you may be able to shave the lower ends of the X braces down to the point where you won't need to inlet them, due to the nature of the load they carry. But once you've shaped them to carry the load, whether you inlet them or not depends on the geometry. |
Author: | Joe Beaver [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Thanks Alan. That makes sense. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Alan Carruth wrote: If the brace is not inletted, and somebody knocks the top over the brace with a microphone, say (I know YOU would not do that, but it happens...) the top will bend and the brace will not. This puts a lot of peeling stress on the glue line, and glue is not good at that, so the brace will tend to peel loose. Back when I did more repairs I used to get in old Gibsons with loose or missing upper transverse braces. They used to scoop out the very end of the braces over a short distance with a sander, just about down to nothing. Rather than cutting pockets for the brace ends, they seem to have simply mashed everything down with clamps, counting on the brace end to compress the liner the small amount that was needed. Since both the bracing and the liner were spruce is happens every so often that the liner will be harder than the brace wood, and it's the brace end that gets crushed. This essentially severs the brace end just inside the liner, and eventually, with the download on it, it peels loose. In a couple of cases the player found the stick rattling around inside the box, and tossed it out. Then the action got really high.... You mean like this? |
Author: | MikeyV [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Great pic, that totally illustrates it. VERY Gibsonesque. :0 Oh, and to at least try to add to the discussion, I Inlet the X-brace at all corners, but I only really do it to the bottom legs because I like to use the notch for indexing the top when gluing. Otherwise, I'd probably taper then down to nothing, like folks above say. I do taper the tone bars and finger braces down to nothing...I guess that's pretty standard. |
Author: | Joe Beaver [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
This a good pic of an ugly situation. Mikey, There is something to be said for using the lower x notch as a guide. When you are in a hurry to get the top clamped while the glue is fresh it can keep you out of trouble. |
Author: | MikeyV [ Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Joe, esp w/ hide glue. The pucker-factor is highest when gluing the plates onto the rims. For me, at least. ![]() |
Author: | murrmac [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Why would you ever want to use notches in the linings purely for indexing purposes when there is a much simpler and more effective method ? I am indebted to John Arnold for this insightful contribution on another forum, and I hope he does not mind me reproducing it here ... it is sheer genius in its simplicity and effectiveness IMO ... Quote: Two brads will locate it instantly. I place one brad in the neck block under the fingerboard, and one on the outer edge of the tail block, where the binding and purfling grooves will be routed. The brads are removed after the glue sets. and again, (edited this time to protect the innocent ... ![]() Quote: With the brads, it makes no difference what the orientation of the body is. Gluing top down is better, since it eliminates having excess glue run down the sides. I apply the glue with the sides turned top side up....I like to install the top before flipping the body over and clamping it. The brads hold the top in the proper alignment during the flipping and clamping, which is why I use them.
As you say, the holes for the brads are drilled pre-glueup when the top is properly aligned. The brads are inserted in the top, and remain there until the gluing is done. In other words, the brads are already in the top when it goes on the rim. I use the same type of brads when gluing bridges, fingerboards, and peghead veneers. They are 1/2" long and 17 AWG (0.045" dia). I use a #56 drill bit. Sometimes I cut them shorter, particularly for the thinner peghead veneers. These brads have a small head on them, so they are inserted from the outside. The head remains above the surface after the gluing, which helps when removing them. |
Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
I use round toothpicks. Same principle but I snip the excess off with flush-cutting dikes after they're installed and just leave them in. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: To Tuck or not to Tuck the Lower X-Brace |
Lately I've been thinking about doing what Trevor does in his book and Notching out completey. Whenever I route the bindings I expose the brace end anyway. |
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