Over 6 months late? I get very worried when I'm a month late, can hardly sleep.
At least Cypress is one of the easier woods to glue.
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| Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40297 |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed May 08, 2013 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
A friend of mine ordered two custom flamenco guitars over a year ago. Despite being promised the guitars in 6 months, he still has not received them. However, the luthier emailed him yesterday saying that he discovered a small crack in the back plate that he was repairing and refinishing so there would be another delay in the delivery date. He called me to ask if the price should be discounted due to the crack. My answer was that if the crack is repaired properly, and is invisible, I didn't think he should expect a discount. Had the luthier not mentioned it, and it was properly repaired, he may have never known about it. The disclosure by the builder was the right thing to do in my opinion, but I don't think he can expect a discount for it. Upon further reflection, I think I might have given my friend bad advice. What do you all think? Opinions please? |
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Wed May 08, 2013 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Tony_in_NYC wrote: A friend of mine ordered two custom flamenco guitars over a year ago. Despite being promised the guitars in 6 months, he still has not received them. However, the luthier emailed him yesterday saying that he discovered a small crack in the back plate that he was repairing and refinishing so there would be another delay in the delivery date. He called me to ask if the price should be discounted due to the crack. My answer was that if the crack is repaired properly, and is invisible, I didn't think he should expect a discount. Had the luthier not mentioned it, and it was properly repaired, he may have never known about it. The disclosure by the builder was the right thing to do in my opinion, but I don't think he can expect a discount for it. Upon further reflection, I think I might have given my friend bad advice. What do you all think? Opinions please? I agree with your advice. As long as it is repaired properly there is no issue. If incorrectly repaired I would not accept the guitar. I would not give a discount nor expect one. I would however offer the condition that it would be repaired free of charge should the crack open in the future. |
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| Author: | Leftyprs [ Wed May 08, 2013 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
I think that once the builder disclosed that there was a crack in the plate that needed to be repaired and refinished, the builder should have offered a discount or to rebuild the guitar with a new plate. The fact that it has taken twice as long to deliver as estimated is an everyday occurrence in this business, and when working with materials such as wood, even the best builders in the world come across these type issues from time to time. My decision would also depend on how much trust I had in both the builder's ability to make a proper repair, and his willingness to stand behind his work going forward if an issue does arise. |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed May 08, 2013 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
The guitar is made of cypress if that makes a difference. I agree that the glued wood will be stronger than the wood itself...but then again, science makes it hard to disagree with that statement. I almost don't think the builder should have said anything. As a lay person who does not work with wood, hearing the word "crack" would make anyone nervous. If you work with wood, you know the crack repair will be stronger than before it cracked. The repaired area had to be refinished, so it should be completely invisible. Disclosure in this case, does more harm than good. The future owner has played several examples of the luthiers work and loved them, so I think he trusts the builder. He began getting nervous when the delivery date came and went. In the beginning, the builder was not keeping him up to date on the progress as I think he should have, so my friend thought he might be getting ripped off. I won't mention the builders name because I don't really feel he is doing anything dishonest or underhanded. He is late on delivery, but he is now giving regular updates and I think he is doing the right thing. Filippo Morelli wrote: If every small error or discrepancy in a guitar was pointed out to the receiving owner, there would probably not be one happy guitar customer on the planet. Filippo I agree 100%. I think the builder is doing a poor job of managing expectations by revealing the crack. Saying there was an issue with the finish which needs repairing is not a big deal to a customer. Cracked back plate? Sounds like a real deal breaker if you don't build guitars. Thanks for the feedback fellas. Please keep the opinions coming. |
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| Author: | Darryl Young [ Wed May 08, 2013 12:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
So is he going ahead and delivering the other, non-cracked guitar? Maybe it's just another stall tactic. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Wed May 08, 2013 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Over 6 months late? I get very worried when I'm a month late, can hardly sleep. At least Cypress is one of the easier woods to glue. |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed May 08, 2013 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Darryl Young wrote: So is he going ahead and delivering the other, non-cracked guitar? Maybe it's just another stall tactic. No. He is not delivering either of them until they are both done. I wonder if either of them are done? Michael.N. wrote: Over 6 months late? I get very worried when I'm a month late, can hardly sleep. At least Cypress is one of the easier woods to glue. I was a week late once and I nearly had a heart attack. The worst part about it was that the buyer had completely forgotten about the deadline and when I called him to say it was going to be a week before I could deliver it, he said, "Oh wow! I'm getting it early? I thought I was getting it in a month!" ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") Why did I get stressed out?
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed May 08, 2013 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
I build three a year. If I can't make a deadline, I am really screwed. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Wed May 08, 2013 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Luthiers with really backlog are often lucky to have 6 month accuracy, in my experience... Filippo That would or should only apply to getting to the starting date. Once one started on a guitar that takes any where from, lets just say, 100 to 200 hrs. a 6 months accuracy isn't so good. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed May 08, 2013 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Perhaps if one could spend 100 hours uninterrupted, but there's no shortage of things that get in the way... |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Wed May 08, 2013 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
meddlingfool wrote: Perhaps if one could spend 100 hours uninterrupted, but there's no shortage of things that get in the way... Which is why I said: "Lets just say" which means: for the sake of argument. That being said I am sure there are plenty of pros that can make one in under 100 hrs. I gave a range so as to not elicit comments about being able to build one faster or not being able to build one that fast etc. I failed. |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Wed May 08, 2013 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
It's ok Link. I still love you! Thanks for the opinions folks. This has been an Interesting discussion so far. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu May 09, 2013 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
That's a tough call. 6 months is definitely late. The crack is a non issue though unless it is an indication that the instrument was built in less than ideal conditions. But as they say sheet happens, especially to wood. I mean has anyone really ever built a guitar where they didn't have to hide a thing or two? |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Thu May 09, 2013 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Turns out, it's almost a year late on the original deliver date the luthier promised. That sort of stings. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu May 09, 2013 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
If you are going to own up to a mistake or repair, you should give some sort of discount. If you can make a repair invisible, just keep it to yourself. Any time you are crafting in wood, there is always some sort of damage control that turns up. It sounds like this builder is using it as an excuse for being late. I think your friend should be looking to get any deposit he placed, returned, or the guitars right away. My 2 cents. Alex |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Thu May 09, 2013 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
I think two things are happening here, and you shouldn't mix the two. He's late, that's one thing. And one of the guitars will arrive with a rapaired crack on the back. The fact that he is a year late is difficult to evaluate. Was he sick? His wife died? Did he bad lucked on wood that he had to reorder and wait for it to settle? Or is he just so disorganised that he misaim by a year his delivery dates? Your friend should know I guess. And unless we know exactly why, it's wrong to advise you on what to do. Now for the crack, if your friend gets his guitar and can't find the fix, then it's good. As many have said, such issues are common thing we luthiers deal with. That said, if the crack is visible and ugly, than that is a different issue. If the builder is as most of us full time builders are, if your friend is unhappy when he gets his guitar(s), the builder should make things right. All this to say, I believe the safest thing to do is to start by giving the builder the benefit of the doubt until your friend gets his guitars. |
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| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Thu May 09, 2013 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Excellent advice Alain. Thanks for weighing in. The delivery date is frustrating him, but it's not a deal breaker. Yet. |
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| Author: | nickinbruns [ Fri May 10, 2013 2:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Luthier cracked back plate. Discount or no? |
Sorry, a year late on delivery date? I've got a commission going on now. Took a small deposit 3-4 weeks ago, and am already getting nervous, tho i gave myself till X-mas..... Whether I would stick with the project as a buyer depends on what communication the builder has had so far, and your mate's responses...ie: has he been to see the guitars in progress? was he happy with the work so far? did he make changes that caused some and or all delays? are there extenuating circumstances, as previously mentioned? OR, has it been a frustrating estra year with no or poor communication and endless exceuses, etc..... I'd want my money back. A year's overdue is a long time for your money to be sitting in someone else's pocket..... |
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