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| Torres 1888 question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40205 |
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| Author: | Ronald Lenz [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Torres 1888 question |
I'm considering building to the Torres 1888 plan. I notice he has reduced the thickness of his top plate quite dramatically around the edges - from about 1.2 mm to about 1.5mm, while maintaining a more "normal" thickness of around 2.4 mm near the sound hole. Can anyone offer me an opinion about the possible implications - both positive and negative on these numbers? His braces seem quite substantial compared to, say, Hauser's braces. Would I glue on my braces before I reduce the edges or vice versa? Thanks |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
It's a fairly common technique. I do it with a plane once the sound box is closed and before the binding goes on so I can measure the thickness. It loosens up the top as you approach the stiff rims and makes for a more responsive guitar. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Yeah, I do it too, though I don't thin as much as I did on my early guitars. I usually stay nearer to the 2 - 2.2 mm range now, and have gotten much better headroom. The guitar does not break up quite as quickly. Too thin and you'll loose that power edge. It will sound great, but won't have the dynamic range. All of that, of course, depends on the piece of wood you are using. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Ummm, which 1888 Torres guitar are you referring to exactly? The size of the plantilla makes a lot of difference in how you treat your plates and braces. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
I would contact David Laplante via this forum. He is the go to man for Torres guitars Mike |
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| Author: | Ronald Lenz [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Thanks for your input. I like Waddy's suggestion to keep to about 2 mm at the rims. The 1.2 mm in the plans seems paper thin. By the way the plan is the one offered in the GAL website. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
If it has a scale length of 604 mm it's SE117. I am nearing completion of a guitar built on that plan as well. It makes a lovely little guitar. This one will be for my grand daughter. The original is in Jose Romanillos' museum in Siguenza, Spain. I will be there in July and will get to meet Jose then too! Good luck, Max |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Find out when his book is coming out, Max! See if he is interested in advance sales to help with the publishing cost. I'm in! |
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| Author: | Carey [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
I *think* the OP is talking about SE114 in the GAL plan. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
I'm pretty sure that its the SE114, too. Very different from SE117. Now we know the context of the question. Better answers should be forthcoming. Keep in mind that the thicknesses for a guitar top are highly dependent upon the particular piece of wood, the degree of doming, and the nature of your bracing. Also, Torres was building during the era of gut strings, which behave differently from nylon, so it isn't entirely the thing to do to just copy all of the dimensions exactly as drawn. The document drawings provide valuable insight into how the maker was working, and working in the same spirit is more important that merely copying dimensions. The strings and instrument work as a system, changing the strings has a dramatic effect on the sound. I reduce the perimeter thickness before bracing as I am able to measure my progress and map it out. I leave a little thickness in reserve for finish work. I've been thinning around the whole lower bout, but lately I am inclined to thin mostly the sides of the lower bout. |
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| Author: | Ronald Lenz [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
The plan I'm talking about is the GAL SE114, scale length 650mm. |
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| Author: | Ronald Lenz [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Douglas, when you say that the strings and top work as a system, and that gut strings and nylon strings react differently with the top, I understand that intuitavely (how do you spell that word?) , but what does it mean in practical terms? Are you saying that nylon strings would "over-power" a thin top such as the Torres one in question, perhaps making it sound "flabby"? I'm guessing that nylon strings create more energy than gut strings? |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
WaddyThomson wrote: Find out when his book is coming out, Max! See if he is interested in advance sales to help with the publishing cost. I'm in! Waddy, the book is supposed to come out in June, if all goes well. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Good get me a signed one! I'll pay extra! |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
i can try, if you wish so. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Wed May 01, 2013 8:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Ronald Lenz wrote: Douglas, when you say that the strings and top work as a system, and that gut strings and nylon strings react differently with the top, I understand that intuitavely (how do you spell that word?) , but what does it mean in practical terms? Are you saying that nylon strings would "over-power" a thin top such as the Torres one in question, perhaps making it sound "flabby"? I'm guessing that nylon strings create more energy than gut strings? I know enough to know that each guitar responds differently to different strings, and you need to go through a number of sets before you find the kind that you like. Others may like different combinations, and you may prefer different combinations at different times. Its a fluid thing. I also know enough to know that I am not an expert. The biggest difference would be the diameter of the treble strings. Nylon is thicker than gut, or some of the other materials, so it has more air to push with each oscillation. After a few thousand vibrations this extra work load begins to add up and effects the nature of the string vibration. I'm not so sure as to say that nylon imparts more energy, and I don't know that nylon would sound "flabby". I do know that when I traded out nylon d'Darrio J45 nylon strings for nylgut my Torres FE17 and FE19 style guitars gained a shimmer and brilliance to the trebles that I really liked. Its relatively easy to build a classical guitar to get good bass, but most builders strive to get good trebles, as this is the harder part. Beautiful, singing, trebles with good clarity and projection. When building a Torres style guitar, you have two main choices that I can see: You can build as close as you can to the original and use string as close as possible to gut, either gut or synthetic such as Aquila Nylgut. Alternatively, you can choose to use nylon or carbon strings and choose to build the instrument for that kind of string. My experience has been with the former and I do not have the experience building with the later approach so I can't offer much there, other than this (building for nylon) has been the approach of much of the 20th century. I hope that this helps! |
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| Author: | Ronald Lenz [ Thu May 02, 2013 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Torres 1888 question |
Thanks for the great answer! |
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