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Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40188		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Martin sent me an e-mail about this new Seth Avett D-35 model. It's described below... Does harvesting in winter really do anything?

The Basics
Built in collaboration with Seth Avett of The Avett Brothers, a high-altitude Swiss spruce top is featured for the top of this 14-fret Dreadnought. Harvested in winter months to produce a lighter-weight wood with better stiffness, this wood features a tight and even grain. This guitar also sports three-piece back composed of East Indian rosewood with a flamed koa center wedge. Seth himself designed the copper snowflake inlay placed in this guitar's ebony fretboard.

List Price: $3,999.00 Left Friendly
Author:  the Padma [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
main reason lumber is primarily cut in the winter is that the ground is frozen, which allows access for heavy logging equipment with limited damage to the soil. Also, winter cut logs have tight bark, which is an advantage to protect against bug infestation for logs that sit a long time before processing, but with cold weather and since sap is not running, bugs are usually a minimal threat.

Sorry, studies have shown that babble about water and moisture content to be just that ~ B.S.

However trees that have been danced around in a circle by 16 Vestal Virgins on a fool moon night in the dead of winter make for the best tops...gee, every old loofer knows that. laughing6-hehe


Blessings
Author:  bftobin [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Also see: Moon spruce.
Trees typically shed water before the winter months so they don't get damaged from freezing. That may make tops faster to dry, but I don't believe any lighter.
Pure PR (or BS).

Brent
Author:  B. Howard [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Well, if Martin says so........
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
"Does harvesting in winter really do anything?"

No.....in my opinion. My reasons why would lengthy but I have indeed pondered this often.

Shane
Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Thanks, Shane, for weighing in. I agree- winter cut wood does not seem to be any different from spring/summer cut wood.

However, I will say this: having cut and processed maple year round for several years, I have noticed that the increased moisture in the wood in the summer time means that enzymatic stain is more of a difficulty to deal with. More attention needs to be taken with that wood so that it dries properly. Once it is dried, I have not been able to notice any difference whatsoever in batches of wood that were cut in different seasons.

Different species may have bigger differences, but I seriously doubt it.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
I think it is called
Marketing
I don't think the time of year has a thing to do with it , however I do know that some of the forrests in Europe and the Baltics are very swampy and rely on winter to freeze the soil to allow harvest.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Up here, (spruce) logging was traditionally done duing winter. With all the snow on the ground, the logs would could easily be hauled out by horse.
Image
Back in those days, logs would sometimes be piled up for weeks or months, before they started hauling them, often to a nearby waterway, to be floated further along. With less water in the wood, and the cold temperatures, staining, bugs, and checking would be much less of a problem than during summer, which is the main reason most of the logging is still done done during winter, here. I can assure everyone it was not, and is not done for any acoustical benefits of the wood. I don't how one would "prove" such a thing, or "disprove" it for that matter...
Author:  cphanna [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Related question, please: Is there TRULY less water in the wood, or has the water simply quit moving? I read a forestry article years ago that said sap doesn't really rise in the spring nor go down in winter. It's present year round, but begins to move through the tree again as days lengthen. Not being a botanist, I don't know.
As a professional marketer, I can say this sounds like a great piece of marketing mumbo-jumbo. I can think of another great benefit of winter harvesting: Loggers don't collect ticks.
Author:  Rob Flindall [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Isn't the wood in the center of the tree, which we use for our tone woods, essentially 'dead' wood, with the living wood only around the perimeter of the tree - hence why we get tree rings? I can see the wood in the center of the tree having a fairly constant water content throughout the year, with the living wood at the perimeter having a water content that changes with the season. Don't forget, we only get maple syrup in the spring once the 'sap is running'. So for our purposes, time of year has no effect on water content etc. Just my thoughts.....

Image

^ I like diagrams :)
Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Yes, Rob, you are correct, with the notable exception of maple, in which it is the sapwood that is desirable for instruments. In the case of figured trees, the best figure is closest to the bark, and in the case of stained instruments, the sapwood takes the stain better, and there may be other reasons to.

Once the wood is dried, I cannot notice any difference in density, hardness, or tone between the heartwood and the sapwood.

cphanna-In the case of maple (I keep coming back to this because it is the only species that I know for sure that I have handled freshly-cut wood in every season), there does seem to be less water in the wood in the winter. In the summertime, it's not uncommon to cut a green billet, stand it up on end, and see a little puddle of water underneath it. I have never seen that in the winter. That's about all I can say for sure.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
It makes the loggers really cold.
Author:  A.Hix [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
I my experience, the main reason for cutting softwoods like spruce and pine in winter months helps prevent "blue staining" which is caused by moisture trapped in the cambium or inner bark to set up fungal growth. If you cut softwood trees and let them go uncut and undried with the bark on, the blue staining works its way inward into the wood. When we cut trees in the summer, they need to be cut and dried quickly, or blueing starts.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Lumberjacks who harvest the wood in the winter are generally grumpier than when they harvest wood in the summer because in the winter, they are freezing their rear ends off. This grumpy attitude is transferred to the wood through a process whose name I can not mention on a family friendly forum. The happy attitude that they have during the warmer months is also transferred to the wood and summer logs, in turn, make better instruments. It's science. You simply can not argue with science. Mostly, you can't argue with science because science is not a person, it is a noun, so it has no way to give a rebuttal. If science were a person, it might have some strong bullet points to help prive its argument. Hopefully, if science were able to speak it would not have an annoying, high pitched voice, or dress like a hipster. That would be annoying. It would probably want a Pabst Blue Ribbon and try to be all ironic and stuff.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
Lumberjacks who harvest the wood in the winter are generally grumpier than when they harvest wood in the summer because in the winter, they are freezing their rear ends off. This grumpy attitude is transferred to the wood through a process whose name I can not mention on a family friendly forum. The happy attitude that they have during the warmer months is also transferred to the wood and summer logs, in turn, make better instruments. It's science. You simply can not argue with science. Mostly, you can't argue with science because science is not a person, it is a noun, so it has no way to give a rebuttal. If science were a person, it might have some strong bullet points to help prive its argument. Hopefully, if science were able to speak it would not have an annoying, high pitched voice, or dress like a hipster. That would be annoying. It would probably want a Pabst Blue Ribbon and try to be all ironic and stuff.

It is all very clear, now. Thanks for such a succinct, thoughtful explanation, Tony. I'm going to wait for summer to chop my neighbors' tree down. Once I lay the noun bit on him, I'm sure he'll be OK. ;)

Alex
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Works every time.
Author:  John Arnold [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Blue stain is the main reason I prefer to cut red spruce during the dormant season, whch normally is from late-September to mid-March. Blue stain is a fungus that tends to grow in the wood when the MC is above 15%, and when the ambient temperature is above 60 degrees F. It primarily grows in the sapwood, which is almost always used on smaller spruce trees. In fact, about the only spruce in which the sapwood is routinely discarded is Sitka.
In my experience, leaving the bark on the wood is a mixed bag. The bark will prevent the sapwood from drying out too quickly and causing cracks, but it also is the mechanism by which borers enter the wood. The insect eggs are already in the bark when the tree is cut, and the death of the tree causes chemical changes that trigger the hatching of the eggs.
The best way to process spruce is to cut the wood into tops and dry it during the cold season, before the borers become active.
Author:  FishtownMike [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Only if naked virgins do the harvesting.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
You think it's hard to argue with nouns. Try arguing with participles, especially when they are dangling.

Filippo


Oh man! I didn't even want to bring that up!
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
Filippo Morelli wrote:
You think it's hard to argue with nouns. Try arguing with participles, especially when they are dangling.

Filippo


Oh man! I didn't even want to bring that up!


of course not, then it wouldn't be dangling. . .
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Stop staring at my participle!
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
http://www.best-eurospruce.com/3.html

The spruce we sell is slow grown because of the short growing seasons at the altitudes and locations where our tonewood comes from, thus resuming in tight and even grain. All German, Swiss, Italian etc. spruce we have is picea abies and is harvest in the winter months, producing a relatively lighter weight wood compared to the volume and better stiffness. Most trees are harvested when they are frozen for approx. 2/3 of the diameter (only the heart wood is not frozen).

Filippo

Frozen wood is easier to split by hand, too. Really, it is, Im tellin ya. Done it, liked it..
Author:  Evilfrog [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
It makes me cold. It makes the tractor cold. It makes the chains cold. It makes the truck cold. Worse is if it is snowy out. Then I'm wet as well.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Oh, you doubters & mockers... Read & weep.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22094279
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does harvesting in winter really do anything?
Daniel Minard wrote:
Oh, you doubters & mockers... Read & weep.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22094279


" its age, the weather and even the position of the moon help to craft the warmest, fullest notes"

"Branches mean knots in the wood. And knots in the wood spoil its resonance"

Nice! Now I know why our wood just does not match up Dan, too many branches (those pesky things that help the tree feed) are ruining the resonance. I need to see some of them branchless swiss spruce trees. And it is kinda cool how a tree, where it grows and how it views the moon can craft the warmest, fullest, notes and the luthier really is out of the picture!

For me, processing wood in summer is more of an issue with degrdation more than anything else. I have found that when the tree was fell has no bearing on anything. I have found that warmer temperatures and direct sun will degrade billets faster (blue stain and checking) so I have to processes from log, to block, to billet, to top faster so I will have less loss due to stain and checks. These issues are significantly reduced in the winter. But I am 100% certain that there is no one anywhere that can tell whether a top originated from a tree that was fell during a specific time of the year or during a specific moon phase. Also, how would you even test this theory? Once you decide to fall the tree you can't go back and decide to fall it again during a different season or moon phase to document the difference. The reality is that by far the greatest majority of people in this industry will not even be able to tell you definitively (typically with the exception of Sitka) which spruce is which once the top is processed.

In processing spruce (which is quite different from hardwoods, like maple as discussed earlier) I have found that the majority of the water (and likely most of the sugars) are in the sapwood. This is about 1.5 to 3 inches of the outer layer of the trees I harvest or process (which are 3.5 to 6 feet in diametre). The inner portion of the tree is nolonger active and holds moisture only as a result of the fact that it is surrounded by the moisture contained in the sapwood. This inner wood is very significantly lighter in weight (drier) than the sapwood. As I remove the sapwood from the sitka hybrid I harvest I am left with wood that has virtually no change from one season to the next because it is inactive.

Anyway, these are just my humble opinions.

Shane
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