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glue for bridge
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40116		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sprouseod [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  glue for bridge
I'm getting ready to glue the bridge on my next guitar. Is there any advantage in using another glue over titebond?

Thanks
Richard
Author:  dpm99 [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
I just stepped into my DeLorean and popped into the future so I could come back and summarize this thread for you. As of three days from now, here's basically what I see. There are several guys talking about hot hide glue. I get the impression from them that you CAN you use Titebond, but they never would. One guy linked to a couple other threads that cover bridge gluing. Hugh Evans chimed in with some technical data I didn't understand about different Titebond products. And then the thread got sidetracked when somebody posted a picture of a pinless bridge. Hope that helps.

Incidentally, I plan to use Titebond I on my next bridge glue.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
What he said ^^^^^ except that instead of TB I use HHG. Oops it has already started.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
David your reply can fit in with a lot of topics, we often wander away from the initial subject but it usually interesting where ever it goes. There are so many ways of doing each step of the build process.

Fred
Author:  LarryH [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
dpm99 wrote:
I just stepped into my DeLorean and popped into the future so I could come back and summarize this thread for you. As of three days from now, here's basically what I see. There are several guys talking about hot hide glue. I get the impression from them that you CAN you use Titebond, but they never would. One guy linked to a couple other threads that cover bridge gluing. Hugh Evans chimed in with some technical data I didn't understand about different Titebond products. And then the thread got sidetracked when somebody posted a picture of a pinless bridge. Hope that helps.

Incidentally, I plan to use Titebond I on my next bridge glue.


What year is your DeLorean?
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
What kind of glue was used on the Delorean's upholstery?
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
dpm99 wrote:
I just stepped into my DeLorean and popped into the future so I could come back and summarize this thread for you. As of three days from now, here's basically what I see. There are several guys talking about hot hide glue. I get the impression from them that you CAN you use Titebond, but they never would. One guy linked to a couple other threads that cover bridge gluing. Hugh Evans chimed in with some technical data I didn't understand about different Titebond products. And then the thread got sidetracked when somebody posted a picture of a pinless bridge. Hope that helps.

Incidentally, I plan to use Titebond I on my next bridge glue.


Best. Post. Ever. Image

I use glue made from the tears of virgin unicorns. For the tone.
Author:  sprouseod [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
Doug Balzer wrote:
What kind of glue was used on the Delorean's upholstery?


Some sort of "special" white glue that starts off as a powder. I think it's called cocabond. :D
Author:  TimAllen [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
I'm making a guess that, because of the question and how it's phrased, Richard may be a beginner like me. So I'm going to answer in that context, which may be of interest to anyone who is beginning.

First, you say "titebond." A lot of posts make it clear that many people aren't aware that there are four kinds of Titebond likely to be used in non-factory woodworking. Not to get into all the details, the quick answer is: Titebond Extend and Titebond Original are generally recognized as good for gluing bridges. Titebond II is a little more likely to creep (move slowly) but still pretty good. Titebond III is considerably more likely to creep, or come loose, especially if the guitar is ever left in a hot car. Hugh Evans has written some detailed and clear posts about these, easier to take in if you have a technical or scientific bent, but well worth the effort to understand IMHO.

I used Titebond I on my first guitar and it lifted partway immediately (though still clinging 2.5 years later), and fish glue on my second guitar. The second bridge went on well and is holding. I attribute the Titebond semi-failure to our old friend OE (operator error). I probably didn't have a good enough fit, and/or didn't clamp it properly, and/or the glue partly set before I finished the operation. I think fish glue is less prone to operator error because it sets up slowly, so you have plenty of time to get everything positioned just right, clamp it, and then intervene if the clamps start to push the bridge out of place. For that reason I recommend fish glue to other beginners.

In any case, most glues will work if you have an excellent fit, and no glues will work well if you don't.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled jesting posts.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
If you utilize positioning pins to locate the bridge for gluing, then slipping out of position while clamping should be less of a problem and the glue of choice is less important. However, any beginner should get comfortable with the procedure for gluing any part before going for it with glue. Practice clamping the bridge a couple, or three, times so you know the motions. Then do it with glue. I use two 1/16th drill bits in the saddle slot to position the bridge and I also use Fox style clamp that bolts through the two outer bridge pin holes, so movement is not much of an issue for me. If you are only using clamps, I can see how movement can be a big issue.
If it is your first guitar, Titebond original will work just fine. If you are comfortable using HHG or fish glue, use that. I would stick with TiteBind original for my first guitar though. But that's just me.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
LarryH wrote:

What year is your DeLorean?


Mine is a 2025.
Author:  klooker [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
I use HHG mainly because it's the easiest to clean off.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
I use HHG because it doesn't like to skate around as much when clamping, and as Kevin said, it is easy to clean up. I also like the idea of being able to reglue 9if needed) without having to clean off all the old glue on both surfaces. I was afraid to use HHG for a long time because it has a reputation for being difficult to learn to use. IMHO that reputation is overstated and other than open time, it is easier to use that TB.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
Just glued a bridge a couple days ago :) http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=526563#p526563
Author:  JSDenvir [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for brighe
I'm partial to hhg, but I also use a vacuum clamp, which is easier/faster than regular bridge clamps. I'm not comfortable setting up regular bridge clamps with hhg. I'd be concerned with it gelling before I got everything clamped down. If this is your first, save yourself the grief and use tite bond. Or fish glue gives you all the time in the world.

It's your first time. Don't rush it.

Steve
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
I use fish or hot hide.
Author:  dpm99 [ Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
And to think I was worried that knowledge of the future might change future events! Where's Hugh Evans?
Author:  Josh H [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
I started out using titebond for everything, but a few years back I switched to HHG and fish for most of the gluing operations. I didn't have to change any of my bridge gluing technique when I switched from using titebond to fish. I've never had a bridge joint failure with either glue. If you are looking for an easy glue to switch to or you might want to consider fish glue.

Josh
Author:  stan thomison [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
All the glues used are good and work one as well as another. I have used them all. The last few batches with Gorilla wood glue (which seemed to me the same as LMI white) I have never had a problem with Titebond or the others. I know the shops I worked in and both bigger named builders used Titebond. Never seen any come back because of glue failure.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
In my newbie days, I tried several different glues & had an embarrassingly high failure rate with all of them.
I like HHG, but had to remove a bridge & found that it was a real bear to separate the joint.
For the last 20 or so guitars I've been using LMI white glue. Not a failure yet...
More important than which glue you use is how well the bridge fits the arch of the top & your clamping method... (IMHO)
Author:  hugh.evans [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
Great Scott!!! What kind of reputation have I earned myself around here? Despite your apparent meddling with the space-time continuum, I have persevered. I've been sidetracked with an electronics project using extremely low-z pickup designs and networks of digitally controlled analog state variable filters (no, I'm not joking.) Unfortunately for the world I also gained a new acquaintance, who I am now collaborating with on said project as well as others such as a carbon-fiber reinforced guitar made from bamboo. Check out www.cycfi.com for more information.

As for the question of adhesive selection for guitar bridges: There are several good options. TB Original is fine, although from my previous posts you will find a preference for Titebond Extend. Either product can handle this application. Bonding surfaces should be as smooth and well-mated as possible. Clamping pressure should be applied as long as possible up to 24 hours. To define a common term, minimum clamping time is the duration required for the adhesive bond strength match the force required to maintain the geometry of the bonding surfaces. In other words, if there is a gap of 0.10" and after pressure is applied it shrinks to 0.003", minimum clamp time occurs when the adhesive can hold the pieces at 0.003" and will therefore achieve the same bond strength as if the clamps were left on for the full 24 hours.

Since the original post does not mention a specific number of builds completed, actual experience is difficult to gauge. What I will say is this: Every luthier, as well as anyone who enjoys woodworking, should learn to use Hot Hide Glue. The learning curve is not steep, and it's a skill you owe it to yourself to master. I probably use TB Extend for over 90% of all times that I use adhesives, yet I have at least 20 lbs of granular hide glue in a variety of gram strengths. There are simply times when it is the right tool for the job.

I cannot fault luthiers who use HHG exclusively, because its performance is in no way inferior to modern synthetic adhesives in the application of making guitars... As long as you don't plan to play them in the shower. If you do there will be bigger problems, such as warping wood, to deal with that outweigh any joint separation that occurs from contact with moisture. With that said, it requires preparation, has more limited and less predictable open time than PVA, and is susceptible to starved joints.

There are several threads in which I have gone into great detail comparing and contrasting adhesives. But if you have anything specific to discuss I'm always up for it.

As a separate musing, it is truly odd when I stop to consider that information I routinely provide likely results in the sale of products by a company that fired me so unceremoniously. I suppose it speaks to the quality of many of their products. It's great being free to explain that TB III is inferior to other PVAs in almost every way, and was little more than a science fair project to make a one part PVA that can pass ANSI/HPVA Type I water resistance. But still, getting a paycheck would be nice. I got a nasty phone call for asking a question about a new product that was mentioned on Franklin's facebook page, as well as chiming in with a couple of responses to questions that were left hanging (you'd think free labor would be appreciated.) Enough of my little rant.
Author:  dpm99 [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
Thank you Hugh, as always. And now, let the time paradox be complete...

Image
Author:  FishtownMike [ Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
Daniel Minard wrote:
In my newbie days, I tried several different glues & had an embarrassingly high failure rate with all of them.
I like HHG, but had to remove a bridge & found that it was a real bear to separate the joint.
For the last 20 or so guitars I've been using LMI white glue. Not a failure yet...
More important than which glue you use is how well the bridge fits the arch of the top & your clamping method... (IMHO)

Tim Mcknight did a glue study and found LMI white glue similar in hardness to hot hide. Anyone know what type of glue the LMI white is?
Author:  hugh.evans [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
It's a PVA of some sort. Any details on his methodology? Shore hardness can be used to loosely correlate to Young's modulus... But the films need to be awfully thick to get a proper reading. It would likely need to start off about 1/2" thick and spend several days at 200 F to bake out all the moisture. Thermal plasticity would be a better determinination.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glue for bridge
dpm99 wrote:
Thank you Hugh, as always. And now, let the time paradox be complete...

Image

David, that looks pretty sweet! How did it work out and what did you use for those little shafts?
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