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Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
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Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
As the title suggests, I'm looking for a new finish to start using on my instruments, and I don't have a chance to get any Waterlox locally.

I'm looking for something I can apply indoors, with brush or rag. It needs to withstand normal wear and tear (or maybe a little more than normal, ie fingerboards), and look great.

I have had good success with Tru-oil, which, according to one source, is supposed to be a "joke" compared to Waterlox. I have no complaints myself, but if WL is *so* much better than TO, I'm willing and ready to try it.

So, what product should I buy? Is it all it's cracked up to be, no pun intended? Is there any place on an instrument I should not use it? What is the best method of application that you've found?

As far as getting it here is concerned, I thought I would just have amazon.com send it to my US address, and I'll go pick it up.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Hey Lincoln - If you are looking for a Cnd. supplier for Waterlox, A&M in Cambridge, Ont. sells it. http://www.amwoodinc.com/productDetail. ... D40w%3d%3d I've got a couple of full cans I bought from A&M about 20+ years ago - $16 each!

Alex
Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Filippo Morelli wrote:

Why not french polish?

Filippo


In a word, durability. To expand, I don't think the individual I have this next instrument in mind for will be able to keep alcohol away from his guitar. :roll:

I like the way french polish is applied, as well as the way it looks and feels. I just question its ability to hold up under "slightly above normal wear and tear." If it is a really a good idea, then I will start learning how to do it.

Alex Kleon wrote:
Hey Lincoln - If you are looking for a Cnd. supplier for Waterlox, A&M in Cambridge, Ont. sells it. http://www.amwoodinc.com/productDetail. ... D40w%3d%3d I've got a couple of full cans I bought from A&M about 20+ years ago - $16 each!

Alex


Thanks, Alex! The idea of amazon was to combine the Waterlox with something else that I was already having shipped, and get free shipping. But I'll keep A&M in mind.

Maybe my question regarding Waterlox would be better restated, "Is it really worthwhile? Is it better than what I have been using so far?"
Author:  Ron Belanger [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
I've been using Waterlox for my necks and I have overcome the oxidation process by getting small 4 oz. tins and decanting the Waterlox into the tins when I open a new can. When I am finished an application I crush the small tin to keep the liquid level with the top and I store the tin upside down. I do lose a bit, but it's manageable.

French Polish is in my future as well.
Author:  klooker [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
I've been using it on woodworking projects for about 10 years now.

I've also had problems with it drying out in the can but Bloxygen has helped tremendously. One thing I do is keep the internal cap - the one that's under the screw on cap that you have to pry off. When I close it up I put in a shot of Bloxygen, then the internal cap, then screw the regular cap on.

I've used the original & the gloss. The gloss will give a deeper shine than the original but it works best on top of the original so you'll need to buy both. You may just want to try the original first then if you want more shine, buy some gloss.

One last thing, it is pretty stinky IMO. Not as bad a lacquer but a lot worse than any water based product.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Thanks, Kevin and Ron.

It looks as though I will have to buy some and find out for myself if I like it well enough to keep using it. Is the smell so bad that I would not be able to use it in my basement?

I have overcome the oxidization of Tru-oil and walnut oil by simply storing the bottles upside down. Works great!
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Make sure to have good ventilation, it has fumes and an odor. I find its best to apply no more than one coat every 24 hrs. I also like to level sand a bit between coats with 320. I apply with a brush. Be careful if you use rags, not just for application but clean up as well. Don't toss them in a can, they can spontaneously combust.
Author:  Josh H [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Alex Kleon wrote:
Hey Lincoln - If you are looking for a Cnd. supplier for Waterlox, A&M in Cambridge, Ont. sells it. http://www.amwoodinc.com/productDetail. ... D40w%3d%3d I've got a couple of full cans I bought from A&M about 20+ years ago - $16 each!

Alex


I picked up a can of Waterlox at A&M about a month ago. It was a smaller can than what is shown on the website (I think 1 litre). It cost me around $45, I think the price has gone up a bit in the past 20 years.

Josh
Author:  grumpy [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
The smell isn't that bad; about the same as an open container of varsol. I did our home's red pine floor(roughly 800 sq.ft.) with it, and slept in the same house with just a big box fan pushing air out of a window overnight. I was applying about 1-1/2 gallons per coat(one coat per day), so I think you'll survive the few ounces it takes to do a coat on an instrument.

So far, I've only used it on necks, but it's a favorite! The first one I did was for a young friend who plays a LOT. Hours, daily. I rubbed-on a bit of Waterlox Original, and he hasn't worn any of it off in the 2 or 3 years since. And he likes his beer, too... As for how much I applied, well, it took all of maybe 3 to 5 minutes, total, to apply it, and it was dry when I was done. I just rubbed it until dry, french polish style. It came out dead flat; zero gloss. Not satin, not semi gloss, but absolutely dead-flat. It's as if there is zero finish on the neck. I've done a few more this way, including my latest personal guitar. Beautiful, "dry" feel.

Brushing it on thicker will, of course, bring up a decent gloss. Our floors have held-up wonderfully, and still shine just fine after nearly 3 full years now, and we're not fussy with it; we wear our shoes in the house, the dog plays fetch and likes to slam the brakes and slide to the toy/ball, etc... It's not a guitar-like shine, but rather a nice, natural shine. Dunno if it can be buffed, but I imagine it can.

Bloxygen is a great investment, and I combine that with crushing the can as much as I can to minimize any remaining air. I pour-off into a 250ml jar, and top the jar with clean marbles, right to the rim, as I use-up the Waterlox, and the jar will last until done. I also use the Waterlox under my polyester, as a tie-coat. brings out the woods grain and figure and color like nothing else, and lends to a excellent bond.
Author:  ballbanjos [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
I hate to be the apparently lone dissenter, but hey--I'm a banjo guy anyway so there's nothing new there! I guess when you get down to it, I don't really hate to dissent at all.

I've french polished most everything I do for years, while occasionally using Tru Oil, Behlen's Rockhard, and more recently Pratt and Lambert #38. A couple of years ago I did some banjo necks as experiments using Waterlox and frankly I hated it. Used on maple, it colored the wood slightly but unpleasantly to my eyes. Not the nice warm glow of shellac, Tru Oil or the old Rockhard. As a player, I didn't like the feel of the Waterlox. It smells bad, and did go bad in the can pretty quickly (though that is the case with Rockhard and Pratt and Lambert too). The final results that I got weren't anywhere on par with the other finishes that I use. On a positive note, since I wasn't about to let the banjos I finished using Waterlox leave my shop, I did end up getting to keep the banjo that has become my "player!" I'm going to refinish the neck one of these days though. It's ugly and it doesn't have a good feel. Sounds pretty danged good though--at least the Waterlox didn't screw that part up!

Seriously, for the kind of finish that Waterlox is, I'd take Tru Oil over it any day. I have twenty year old banjos finished in Tru Oil that have been through pretty heavy levels of abuse that still look and feel great (same thing for french polish--beer incidents, rainy festivals and all, by the way). You can get anything from a nice satin to a good gloss with Tru Oil, the color is nicer on light colored woods, and it feels ever so much better to me than Waterlox. French polish is still my go-to finish, and probably always will be. I love the process, the final result looks and feels great, and it's the only common finish out there that is not only non-toxic, but even edible. No, I don't eat banjos, but I do like the fact that FP wouldn't prevent me from doing so safely if I so desired.

Undoubtedly, Waterlox is a durable finish. It goes on easy, and looks OK on darker woods. But as the dissenter and banjo geek that I am, I vote "Nay," and won't be using it again. Give me FP, Tru Oil or P&L #38.

Dave
Author:  George L [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Interesting thread. I didn't know people were using Waterlox for guitars. Anyone do an entire instrument with it? If so, did you seal with shellac or something first?

I finished my walnut kitchen countertops with Waterlox Original Sealer and their Satin Finish. It really brought out the beauty of the wood and is holding up extremely well, even around the sink. Simply slopped it on with those cheap sponge applicators and it came out smooth as silk. Think I did three coast of the sealer and two of the satin. Without the satin it had a nice glossy sheen. I don't know how it would respond to buffing. I gave everything a light 320 grit scuff sand between coats. Waterlox says air movement over the surface is key, otherwise it won't want to dry.
Author:  crich [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
I think french polishing gets a bad rap on it's durability. I have several guitars that I french polished, necks and bodies, that are holding up great. Even my camping guitar is FPed. I'm starting to believe the older these guitars get , the harder the FP becomes. Maybe it's just my pH factor..... and I drink only the finest beers. idunno Clinton
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
crich wrote:
I think french polishing gets a bad rap on it's durability. I have several guitars that I french polished, necks and bodies, that are holding up great. Even my camping guitar is FPed. I'm starting to believe the older these guitars get , the harder the FP becomes. Maybe it's just my pH factor.. ....., . . and I drink only the finest beers. idunno Clinton


I agree 100%. My personal guitar is FP , I play out with it, loan it to people as a demo and it looks as good as it did when new after two years of daily use. Most people I see doing FP are not putting enough material down, not packing it down tight enough. FP done properly its a lot of work.
Author:  dylan [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Funny how many of the posts talk about how to preserve Waterlox in the can, but here's one more suggestion. Take a deep breath and hold it, giving your lungs time to absorb most of the oxygen, then blow into the can before sealing it. That way you end up with mostly carbon dioxide in the can rather than oxygen.

I've used Waterlox on a couple of soundboards and was reasonably pleased with the results. Definitely give it ample time to cure between coats, and as stated earlier, it doesn't work well with oily woods. In fact, as I recall, the company says explicitly that it will not work with Cocobolo.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
dylan wrote:
Funny how many of the posts talk about how to preserve Waterlox in the can, but here's one more suggestion. Take a deep breath and hold it, giving your lungs time to absorb most of the oxygen, then blow into the can before sealing it. That way you end up with mostly carbon dioxide in the can rather than oxygen.

I've used Waterlox on a couple of soundboards and was reasonably pleased with the results. Definitely give it ample time to cure between coats, and as stated earlier, it doesn't work well with oily woods. In fact, as I recall, the company says explicitly that it will not work with Cocobolo.


Not really (we're not that efficient at absorbing oxygen), and it'll be at about 100% humidity. Not sure you want to add water to your can...
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
I've tried the "exhale into the jar" trick many times; it failed, every time.
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Does anyone know if there are other oils besides tung oil in Waterlox?
Author:  Lincoln Goertzen [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Does anyone know the difference between Waterlox and Timberlox (available from Cloverdale Paint)?

From the Cloverdale website: "Timberlox Super Spar Varnish Alkyd High Gloss is a transparent high gloss varnish specially formulated for use in harsh marine and exterior environments."

Sounds as though it might be similar, but I can't seem to download comparable data sheets on both products. I can just drive across the highway and buy a can or gallon of Timberlox, but if it isn't going to yield a nice result, it would all seem to be a waste.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Ken Franklin wrote:
Does anyone know if there are other oils besides tung oil in Waterlox?


I believe it is modified with phenolics.
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planning to start using Waterlox- what do I need to know?
Timberlox sounds like a typical varnish, which would make it very different from Waterlox.

I believe, though I could be wrong, that Waterlox Original is pure tung oil, cooked a specific way.
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