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Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=38756		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Which epoxy do you recommend for fingerboards? Also where do you buy it?

I would like to find a single source to purchase a good quality epoxy and Z-Poxy Finishing Resin. I don't use either often so prefer to purchase small quantites. The last epoxy and Z-Poxy I purchase I used one time on a build.......the epoxy resin is completely hardened so can't be re-used......and I'm afraid to use the Z-Poxy so I guess I'll buy a fresh bottle.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
I use tite bond , stopped using Epoxy after my 1st build, If you ever have to remove the fretboard you will know why.
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
bluescreek wrote:
I use tite bond , stopped using Epoxy after my 1st build, If you ever have to remove the fretboard you will know why.

+1 on this! Titebond saved my butt several times.
I also clean the fretboard gluing surface with alcohol before gluing.
Author:  dberkowitz [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
What are you talking about?? Epoxy is actually easier to remove than Titebond as when its release temperature is reached, it simply lets go without all the gumminess typical of aliphatic resin glues. I use West Systems, and have for years.

David D. Berkowitz
Berkowitz Guitars
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
I've removed a couple of boards that were epoxied,used a heat lamp and they came off real easy.
Tom
Author:  klooker [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
West Systems is good quality epoxy, very different from the stuff you buy at the box store that comes in a double barrel syringe.

West Systems does come in pre-measured packets - cut open, squeeze out, mix together & go. That would probably be more economical than buying cans of hardener & resin.

Kevin Looker

edit
they call them repair packs
Author:  MikeyV [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Why do you guys use Epoxy? I use hot hide, and John uses Titebond, both pretty normal. It's proven that they hold fine, and release and clean up easily. What's the purpose of going to epoxy?

Totally just wondering, not harping on anyone's method.
Author:  weslewis [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
anyone tried thick CA???!!! idunno pfft
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
It's entirely up to the epoxy...the temp at which it releases. The temperature can widely vary from system to system. So...don't make any assumptions about a system you are using based on someone else's experience with a different system.

Epoxies have a mechanical property called Tg (glass transition temperature) and HDT (heat distortion temperature). Good luck trying to get these properties online for over the counter epoxies but they might be obtainable by contacting the manufacturer. These two properties are not ultimately the same thing but they are usually very close to each other and will generally indicate the temperature above which an epoxy will become malleable...and ultimately fail.

I use only epoxy because the system I use stays liquid long enough for all excess material to flow out under pressure prior to setting. Epoxies generally offer the latitude of different hardeners for the purposes of finding the right processing speed for your situation. I also use epoxy because it's particularly aggressive and will mitigate some the issues you might get with the more oily woods. The aggressive nature of epoxy can also work against you when joining light colored woods. It wants to permeate woods deeper than other glues might which can discolor a joint along the glue line. When this is an issue I'll use Titebond if I can get away with it...timewise. But when a light a dark wood is going together I'll use epoxy by default.

I order an epoxy system made by a custom formulator. I have to buy a gallon and a half kit so I doubt you'll want this stuff but the company is Applied Poleramics. PM me for the actual product ID's if you are interested. The Tg is 185F on this system.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
I'm using West System too.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Is the Smith Oak & Teak Epoxy glue a good one? Is it available in small quantity anywhere? Its $26 for 12 oz at LMI.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Good point as long as it sticks to rosewood.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
You've probably seen the threads but several people have reported finish problems at the glue line due to amine blush. A lot of these people were using Z-Poxy. I would go with West System or System 3 or another well-trusted brand. Those folks have put decades into R&D and have some demanding clients.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
you guys using the west system: do you use the fast hardener?
Author:  klooker [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
I've used West Systems 205 fast hardener. If the ambient temperature is not above maybe 80 deg F, you have at least 10 to 15 minutes of working time IMO. The higher the temp, the less working time. As it hardens, it gets hot which shortens the cure time.

West Systems publishes some very helpful literature that explains their products & how to use them.

Kevin Looker
Author:  mqbernardo [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
thanks, will check!
Author:  dberkowitz [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
The reason for using epoxy is to avoid introducing moisture into the neck and fingerboard. Ebony and other neck substrate materials have substantially different expansion and contraction rates. You've gone to the trouble of getting your wood stabilized at a relatively low RH, so why introduce water into the equation. Often using water based glues can cause the neck to back bow, which won't happen with epoxy.
Author:  Ron Belanger [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
dberkowitz wrote:
The reason for using epoxy is to avoid introducing moisture into the neck and fingerboard. Ebony and other neck substrate materials have substantially different expansion and contraction rates. You've gone to the trouble of getting your wood stabilized at a relatively low RH, so why introduce water into the equation. Often using water based glues can cause the neck to back bow, which won't happen with epoxy.


+1
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Let me ask the question another way.

I can pickup both epoxy and z-poxy at a local RC Hobby store. The epoxy brand is Great Planes and they sell a lot of it and that is what I used on my last fretboard. They don't sell a lot of the Z-poxy so it's not so fresh (they couldn't tell me when it was purchased). So does the zpoxy go bad when sitting around for awhile? My thought was I might be better off ordering online assuming I would get newer stock. I have no problem buying the epoxy there but don't won't to run into finishing issues.

Thanks.
Author:  Casey Cochran [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Darryl, I use Z-Poxy finishing resin for pore fill and have found it cheaper on ebay than at the local hobby shop, including shipping.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
With fish glue I often see about 0.2mm of back bow. I clamp for 24h then wait several more days before doing the final leveling and relief. I now have 19 FBs with fish and the oldest was glued on 1st jan 2008, so far all is well. I didn't have the guts to use hide yet but I'm sure it has the potential to add more distorsion. There is quite a difference when doing headplates for example. Fish doesn't seem to add any big crown but hide can noticeably bend the headstock across the grain. It takes several good days to straighten out.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Alexandru Marian wrote:
I didn't have the guts to use hide yet but I'm sure it has the potential to add more distorsion. There is quite a difference when doing headplates for example. Fish doesn't seem to add any big crown but hide can noticeably bend the headstock across the grain. It takes several good days to straighten out.
do you have an educated guess as to why the difference? less water content on fish glue? does fish glue - being more hygroscopic - release moisture more slowly to the wood? something completely different?
i might try FG on my next guitar (my first commission!) - last fingerboard i glued was indeed severely distorted after being glued to the neck.

cheers,
Miguel.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Quote:
So does the zpoxy go bad when sitting around for awhile?


I buy my Zpoxy at the local hobby shop and the last batch was in use over 3 years with no problems and I have no idea how fresh it was when purchased. I use System Three T88 Epoxy for fingerboards and gluing carbon rods into my necks.

Fred
Author:  Darryl Young [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
Fred, thank you!

That is exactly the info I was trying to get from this thread. My main concern was if I could use Z-Poxy of an unknown age. I have z-poxy on-hand that is just under 2 years old that I used on my previous build. Sounds like it would be worth trying if you have used some that is around 3 years old successfully. I can buy epoxy locally that is the same brand I used on my last fretboard. I'm not that happy with it as the resin completely setup in the bottle over the last year (only time I used it was for glueing a fretboard). Thus my question about a better epoxy. I had rather not spend $25+ on a large quantity as I'll likely not use it before it goes bad. So I may buy the 8oz of Great Planes epoxy at the local hobby shop again. I'll at least check if Hobby Lobby has a decent epoxy before going back to this brand (hate to add shipping cost to epoxy so prefer to buy local).

Fred Tellier wrote:
Quote:
So does the zpoxy go bad when sitting around for awhile?


I buy my Zpoxy at the local hobby shop and the last batch was in use over 3 years with no problems and I have no idea how fresh it was when purchased. I use System Three T88 Epoxy for fingerboards and gluing carbon rods into my necks.

Fred
Author:  grumpy [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Which Epoxy for Fingerboards?
I couldn't count how many fretboards I've glued with plain 'ol hardware store epoxy.... Even used 5 minute epoxy in a pinch, more than once, and have not heard of issues. It -is- the single largest glue joint in surface area, on the entire instrument, and it isn't in a great deal of stress.

If you doubt your epoxy, simply mix up a small batch, and see if it sets up hard or not. That'll tell ya. As far as I know, epoxy either works, or it doesn't. In other words, if it sets-up(IE: cures), it's good to go. Once cured, it won't suddenly get rubbery in the future.

But then again, I'm not a chemist or epoxy expert, so if someone more knowledgeable in the field of epoxies says otherwise, I'd trust them...
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