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Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=38747		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
I wonder how many of you use this method when installing binding and purfling. I have some curly Mahogany binding and a BWB purfling that I'll use on the top, back, and sides. Gluing the top and back purfling doesn't seem like an option but gluing the side purfling to the binding would allow that purfling to remain square as it was bent along with the binding.

If you do glue the side purfling to the binding first what kind of glue do you use as it would need to handle the heat of bending and maybe even some water for the curly Mahogany?

I'm using a hot pipe to bend and will probably use CA to install binding/purfling..
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Titebond III
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
I've only done it once but I used fish glue and had no problems when bending.
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Thank you. Yeah it seems like re-gluing would be easy AFTER bent properly but I was curious how the CA would react/bend with heat? It would be more water resistant if I needed to moisten the binding, I assume. Never used Titebond III. Unfortunately I don't have enough binding to experiment with different techniques and glues. Maybe I'll try on some different scrap and see how the CA behaves and it's easy enough to pick up some TB III.

Thanks Steve. Never used, don't have, any fish glue. Probably can't pick up at the local HD. Need to get some for various tasks in the future.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
I've been using the LMI white glue and have not had a problem with the purfling separating from the binding during bending. I bend my binding on my Fox style side bending rig.

Pat
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Thanks Pat. I've got some LMI white, and CA, and TiteBond Premium (blue label) but will be bending on a pipe so more likely to separate I assume?
Author:  SteveT [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Garrett Wade Slow Dry white glue. Tape binding & purfling pairs with purflings inside (i.e., binding/B/W/W/B/binding). Bend in Fox style bender. Never had any separation.
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
TB lll for me. I might be using a Lepages equivalent right now. It seems to look and behave the same as TB. That's the only place I use it on a guitar.

Does anyone manage to do butt wedge mitres after you glue and bend the binding and purfling? As nice as they look. I've pretty much quit doing them because no seems to look at them anyway. It doesn't seem to be worth the time spent.

Danny
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
LarryH wrote:
Thanks Pat. I've got some LMI white, and CA, and TiteBond Premium (blue label) but will be bending on a pipe so more likely to separate I assume?


I do mine on the pipe. I use regular titebond. I tape the bindings together in pairs for the top and back with the purfs facing each other. I use 1/4" masking tape about every 6" or so and then wrap both sets side by side in aluminum foil. I add a bit of water as appropriate for the wood used on the binding before closing the foil and bend them quickly over the pipe. I remove the foil promptly but leave the sets taped together until I am ready to install. I usually bend them when I do the rims so they tend to set around a bit before being used. I get some minor separations but it all goes back together nicely when the bindings are glued and taped, the glue that holds the bindings in is enough to hold it all together in the end.
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
B. Howard wrote:
LarryH wrote:
Thanks Pat. I've got some LMI white, and CA, and TiteBond Premium (blue label) but will be bending on a pipe so more likely to separate I assume?


I do mine on the pipe. I use regular titebond. I tape the bindings together in pairs for the top and back with the purfs facing each other. I use 1/4" masking tape about every 6" or so and then wrap both sets side by side in aluminum foil. I add a bit of water as appropriate for the wood used on the binding before closing the foil and bend them quickly over the pipe. I remove the foil promptly but leave the sets taped together until I am ready to install. I usually bend them when I do the rims so they tend to set around a bit before being used. I get some minor separations but it all goes back together nicely when the bindings are glued and taped, the glue that holds the bindings in is enough to hold it all together in the end.


Thanks Brian, I'll use your technique.
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Danny: I generally do the miter joints more so for myself than for other folks. I have also noticed that generally the only folks that notice are other builders or woodworkers.Not a very big investment in time for a better look.
Tom
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
LMI white for me. I've tried Titebond, CA and Epoxy, which all separate. Often I'm bending Venetian cutaways (check my website) and LMI white holds for that, bending on a pipe, bare, no foil wrapping, etc.. Sometimes multiline purfling will delaminate on the Venetian bend, but a spring clamp will put it right and will also re-attach the purfling to the binding if you over-heat things. Simpler than trying to re-attach CA or Epoxy.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
If it was me, I think I would get more separation using a pipe because I'm sure my pipe gets hotter than my bending blanket and therefore more likely to have the glue soften. If you are really good with a pipe you may be able to run it cooler than I do and have less separation. I bend things in my side bender at 250 - 300 deg F.

Pat
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Pat Hawley wrote:
If it was me, I think I would get more separation using a pipe because I'm sure my pipe gets hotter than my bending blanket and therefore more likely to have the glue soften.

Maybe I should have said... my pipe has thyristor temperature adjustment. I've no idea what the temperature actually is, I just judge it by the way the water bounces off. But I have full adjustment from cold to just short of glowing.
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Tom West wrote:
Danny: I generally do the miter joints more so for myself than for other folks. I have also noticed that generally the only folks that notice are other builders or woodworkers.Not a very big investment in time for a better look.
Tom

You're absolutly right Tom. I do them more for myself also. The last one I did was on a tight waisted guitar and BMB fibre purf. One gave me a little trouble and and ended up with a slight wrinkle at the waist. Seems like the worst mistakes always happen on the business part. ie top bass side. Gotta start building more dreads. eek :lol:
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
DannyV wrote:
Does anyone manage to do butt wedge mitres after you glue and bend the binding and purfling? As nice as they look. I've pretty much quit doing them because no seems to look at them anyway. It doesn't seem to be worth the time spent.

Danny

Always. The customers who look expect neat ones. Adds maybe 10-15 minutes for me, so worth doing.
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Trevor Gore wrote:
DannyV wrote:
Does anyone manage to do butt wedge mitres after you glue and bend the binding and purfling? As nice as they look. I've pretty much quit doing them because no seems to look at them anyway. It doesn't seem to be worth the time spent.

Danny

Always. The customers who look expect neat ones. Adds maybe 10-15 minutes for me, so worth doing.


+1.

If you are going to do side purfs, go all the way. A few quick nips with a sharp chisel and it's done.
Author:  DannyV [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
B. Howard wrote:
Trevor Gore wrote:
DannyV wrote:
Does anyone manage to do butt wedge mitres after you glue and bend the binding and purfling? As nice as they look. I've pretty much quit doing them because no seems to look at them anyway. It doesn't seem to be worth the time spent.

Danny

Always. The customers who look expect neat ones. Adds maybe 10-15 minutes for me, so worth doing.


+1.

If you are going to do side purfs, go all the way. A few quick nips with a sharp chisel and it's done.
Trevor Gore wrote:
DannyV wrote:
Does anyone manage to do butt wedge mitres after you glue and bend the binding and purfling? As nice as they look. I've pretty much quit doing them because no seems to look at them anyway. It doesn't seem to be worth the time spent.

Danny

Always. The customers who look expect neat ones. Adds maybe 10-15 minutes for me, so worth doing.


So....... Cut binding and purf together, mark where the purfling will land on the mitre, 45 with a chisel and scrape off the remaining bit of glued on purfling, the part of the binding that sits on top of the wedge? Simple and like most aspects of my instrument making,"What could possibly go wrong". Ha Ha
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
DannyV wrote:
"What could possibly go wrong". Ha Ha

Many ways to do this, but I use this method because I never seem to do exactly the same purf/binding scheme twice, so I've never "tooled up"...

Forget about the butt strip, first up. Bind the guitar in the normal way, with the side purfs attached to the bindings, then make up your butt strip. I usually use what the bindings are made from, and attach purfs both sides. Then I inlay the butt strip by knifing around it and excavating the waste with a chisel. When you take out the purfs under the bindings, leave a square nib in the corners then trim that off at 45 degrees. I match up the butt strip using a block plane and bench hook as a shooting board to trim for length and cut the mitres on the butt strip. Pic of the finished result here.
Any risk is not so much in getting the mitres right (because you lave lots of opportunity to get it right by leaving the butt strip long and creeping up on things) but ending with a channel that is slightly too wide for the strip you are inlaying. But it's no big deal to remake a slightly wider strip.
Author:  DannyV [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
Trevor Gore wrote:
Forget about the butt strip, first up. Bind the guitar in the normal way, with the side purfs attached to the bindings, then make up your butt strip. I usually use what the bindings are made from, and attach purfs both sides. Then I inlay the butt strip by knifing around it and excavating the waste with a chisel. When you take out the purfs under the bindings, leave a square nib in the corners then trim that off at 45 degrees. I match up the butt strip using a block plane and bench hook as a shooting board to trim for length and cut the mitres on the butt strip. Pic of the finished result here.
Any risk is not so much in getting the mitres right (because you lave lots of opportunity to get it right by leaving the butt strip long and creeping up on things) but ending with a channel that is slightly too wide for the strip you are inlaying. But it's no big deal to remake a slightly wider strip.

Nice chops Trevor! I'll give that one a try. Thanks.

Sorry for the tread hijack Larry. :)
Author:  LarryH [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gluing Side Purfling To Binding Before Installation?
DannyV wrote:
Trevor Gore wrote:
Forget about the butt strip, first up. Bind the guitar in the normal way, with the side purfs attached to the bindings, then make up your butt strip. I usually use what the bindings are made from, and attach purfs both sides. Then I inlay the butt strip by knifing around it and excavating the waste with a chisel. When you take out the purfs under the bindings, leave a square nib in the corners then trim that off at 45 degrees. I match up the butt strip using a block plane and bench hook as a shooting board to trim for length and cut the mitres on the butt strip. Pic of the finished result here.
Any risk is not so much in getting the mitres right (because you lave lots of opportunity to get it right by leaving the butt strip long and creeping up on things) but ending with a channel that is slightly too wide for the strip you are inlaying. But it's no big deal to remake a slightly wider strip.

Nice chops Trevor! I'll give that one a try. Thanks.

Sorry for the tread hijack Larry. :)


No apologies needed. It saves me from starting another thread that this one answers. Thanks for all the info.
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