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New finish source
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=38386		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  New finish source
To the forum members that have been looking
for a easy to use & beautiful finish look NO further.
http://www.vermontnaturalcoatings.com makes one.
I contacted them about their products & they have been
very helpful with info about how thier finishes are made & tech tips.
It's called PolyWhey.
Check out their site for all the info.

I received 1 qt. of the gloss furniture finish in 2 days .
I brushed it,sprayed it and applied it over shellac & Targets waterborne
finish.
No problems with adhesion or bluing!
I used it in temps from 55-70 degrees & humidity from 40-55%.
It sand easily & drys quickly.
I'm hooked!

Less then 95g/L VOC for the exterior finishes.
<180g/VOC for interior finishes.
A NEW Polywipe finish is just coming to market,35g/L
Cleans up with water!
They make floor finishes also.
Give it a try.
You'll be glad you did.
Mike
Author:  RaymundH [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
I just saw this here: http://www.kjpselecthardwoods.com/polywhey.html
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Did you try the floor or furniture finish?
Erps...you said furniture...
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Mike,
Your review has my attention. . . I would be brushing/whipping (probably over shellac). You seem to have done this successfully; can you tell me more about the process, results and/or pitfalls? Which product did you use? Witness lines? How would you rate it for scratch resistance? How did it buff or polish? Am I asking too many questions? What is your favorite color?
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Mike, your opinion holds a lot of weight in this industry as you've got lots of experience under your belt. I hold what you say in high regard.

Can you show us some pictures and give a bit more details (as others have asked)?
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
No "gloss" version though from what I read.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
The furniture is available in gloss...
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Still, this needs the usual *acid test*, as in - how it will stand up to body chemistry on a neck. Also, it is still a plastic, so I'm not sure it will ever look as good as a nitro or varnish finish. But I'm optimistically skeptical.
Or is that skeptically optimistic?

;)
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Don Williams wrote:
this needs the usual *acid test*, as in - how it will stand up to body chemistry on a neck. Also, it is still a plastic, so I'm not sure it will ever look as good as a nitro or varnish finish. But I'm optimistically skeptical.Or is that skeptically optimistic?


I agree my friend.

But every test I 've done it has performed flawlessly.
I do not need to lose more liver or brain cells to toxic finishes!
It's time to step up to friendly & safe finishes!
Guitarists only need protection from the factory finishes.
The dunked in a vat look!
MC
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Let me know in 5 years how it's all working out....

Real-life Luthiers need protection from warranty work, too.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
grumpy wrote:
Let me know in 5 years how it's all working out....

Real-life Luthiers need protection from warranty work, too.

I couldn't agree more. Not being a "real luthier," I can afford to experiment. having a basement shop and no spray equipment, I am pretty much a shellac, or true-oil guy. I'm getting ready to start an ukulele for my five year old that will probably be treated more like a toy than a nice musical instrument. French polish will probably not hold up well at all. If I can apply this without stinkng up my house, I can give it a real test under abusive conditions. . .. However, it probably won't replicate long term exposure to sweaty hands. If I like he look of the finish, I can then make a giveaway guitar and get it some real playing time. My best friend is the perfect combination of Giging guitar player with wreckless regard for protecting the finish of his guitars.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Hmmm, there's a place here in Ottawa that sells that stuff:

http://www.kjpselecthardwoods.com/polywhey.html

I may have to pick some up and do some test boards. Thanks for the info.

Pat
Author:  WendyW [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
I can't find gloss furniture finish at their online store, only satin or semi-gloss. Am I missing something?
Author:  TRein [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Sounds really promising. I am not sure if any amount of casein remains in the whey they use, but casein is incredibly durable stuff. Vermont Coatings website states their coatings have good adhesion qualities which allow it to be applied over old finishes. If it is easy to renew with another couple of coats as needed it seems like a good tradeoff to me. The whole bullet-proof polyester, cat-urethane thing seems more important to guitar makers than guitar players. Taylor started the polyester band wagon as an answer to VOC concerns in SoCal and as a manufacturing expedient. I don't think they were responding to players' demands for a more durable finish.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
I guess some of us amateurs will assume the risk, and in a few years you real luthiers can catch up..... ;)
Author:  John Arnold [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Gloss furniture finish is available here:

http://www.ghsproducts.com/store/p/859-Vermont-Natural-Coatings-PolyWhey-Furniture-Finish-Quart.aspx
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Bryan Bear wrote:
grumpy wrote:
Let me know in 5 years how it's all working out....

Real-life Luthiers need protection from warranty work, too.

I couldn't agree more. Not being a "real luthier," I can afford to experiment. having a basement shop and no spray equipment, I am pretty much a shellac, or true-oil guy. I'm getting ready to start an ukulele for my five year old that will probably be treated more like a toy than a nice musical instrument. French polish will probably not hold up well at all. If I can apply this without stinkng up my house, I can give it a real test under abusive conditions. . .. However, it probably won't replicate long term exposure to sweaty hands. If I like he look of the finish, I can then make a giveaway guitar and get it some real playing time. My best friend is the perfect combination of Giging guitar player with wreckless regard for protecting the finish of his guitars.


Over at Delcamp someone posted a thread asking about a Shellac finish that he used on a Guitar some 20 years previously:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... 11&t=72327

http://www.agwoodcare.co.uk/prod/fiddes ... olish.html
Author:  grumpy [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
I guess some of us amateurs will assume the risk, and in a few years you real luthiers can catch up..... ;)

That's the plan....

There -are- some things that an amateur can do that a 'pro' can't/shouldn't, because of the risks. Facts are facts....
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Yeah, that sounds about right. But I am still waiting for the payments.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
To me, one of the things that distinguishes a pro from an amateur is that a pro is at least partially making a living from building and selling guitars. So what Mario is saying is perfectly understandable - the risks associated with experimenting with, say, a new finish are much higher for a pro then for an amateur. The pro's have got their lively-hoods on the line.

Pat
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
No doubt there.

OTOH, pros should have no trouble finding some serious players willing to take a chance on a new finish, same as us amateurs. Doesn't mean you need to switch out your entire finishing methods to do a trial pair. However, pros obviously have their finishing solutions in hand already. So, no matter....
I will try this finish on my next shiney box and try it myself as I have melty sweat. I'll post results...nothing to lose but money....
Author:  Mike Collins [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
I like the thinking here!

There are no long term tests from what I know.
It's a fairly new product.
But it looks great,works easily,& is safer than any solvent based finish.

I've used the Target finish for the last 13 years.
Makers asked me all the time "What finish is that"
Then they changed everything!
It just stopped being usable completely.

I'm willing to take a chance on it.
BUT I will do more testing on waste wood first.
I NEVER APPLY WATERBASED FINISHES TO BARE WOOD.
IT CAUSES THE WOOD TO SWELL.
SEAL WITH SHELLAC FIRST.


Mike
Author:  mkellyvrod [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
Mike,
thanks for the lead on this product. I've just put the bindings on one of my first two guitars and am working on the 2nd one this weekend. I hadn't made up my mind on the finish to apply, and initially thought I'd try a "French polish". I've also watched the Lowden thread over the last few days, and think I prefer a satin finish. Long story short, I just ordered a quart of the "satin" PolyWhey (another Christmas present from my wife that she doesn't know about yet), and think I'll try it on one of the two guitars I'm working on. I certainly qualify as an amateur, and can't wait to be one of the test cases. I've appreciated the back and forth at a number of finishing threads on this site; it's alway an enjoyable learning experience. Thanks everyone. [:Y:]
Author:  DannyV [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
It doesn't smell like cheese does it. I may not be as much of a "professional luthier" as some of you, but I still don't want my guitars to smell like cheese.

Seriously Mike, you're saying all the Target coatings are now crappy. I have never used them, I've always used nitro, but it might be time to look for something less harmful to my health.

Thanks for the info,
Danny
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New finish source
The thing that has me intrigued is the claim that this finish is about twice as hard as other water based finishes because that has been my main beef with water based finishes. In my view, they just aren't hard enough. So I went out and bought some of the gloss furniture coating. I've got three coats done on a scrap piece of wood. Here's what I can say so far:

1) It imparts a yellow (does amber sound nicer?) on white wood.
2) Already it does feel harder than what I've been used to with water based finishes.
3) I am not impressed with their "resealable" container lid. On closing it up the third time the lid split open along the ridge of the container. So much for resealable.

I'll keep you posted.
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