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An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"
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Author:  Goodin [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

That's a sloppy X brace joint and it looks like one brace is cracked. And what's up with that extra hole on the bridge plate?

Author:  Mark Tripp [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Is that even a joint at the X intersection?!

Looks like they just cut one leg of the X in two, and just butted them up to the other....

Author:  Tom West [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Ninety% of the buyers are too over awed by the shiny outside to think of looking inside.

Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

...but if it was a tight, capped joint and not cracked it would be way too stiff!

I'd say I've seen joints like that from every decade of their guitars since the 1950's. But why just pick on Gibson?

Author:  DannyV [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Aren't manufacturers of everything covered under the "Friday Model" clause. Or is that a "Hangover Monday" model. :lol:

Author:  Rodger Knox [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

In the first photos, are those braces spruce? They look to me more like flatsawn maple than quartersawn spruce.

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Todd Stock wrote:
Why pick on Gibson? LOL - because that's what came through the door. While I'm certain most of us in repair see new guitars that need fretwork, nut and saddle replacement, and minor cosmetic tweaks, it's not often that I see major structural issues on what is presented as a new instrument.

That aside, this is actually a really nice J-200; full voiced and good articulation, with a lot more distinctive bass than common on the model. This is a stock selection issue, rather than an overall workmanship problem, but it's an issue that - if left unresolved - might result in the failure of the top. Saw the same thing on a 70's D-35S, but a lot further along...the lower legs of the x had failed, the fingers on the bass side separated, the forward tone bar half off the top, and the top itself separated from the lining for about 8" along the back edge...all because of an unfortunate choice on the x-brace stock.


When I was at Guitar Center (back when they had independent contractors as actual guitar techs) I actually saw quite a few catostrophic structural failures from major manufacturers. Gibson was the worst offender with lifting bridges, bad neck angles, warped necks, and the occasional popped brace, STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!

Breedlove and then Martin, and Taylor had the least. (I'm not talking about foreign manufacturers). The last three were occasional and rare, with Taylor having only one or two my entire stint there, but Gibson failures were almost routine, with bad guitars monthly. The bad braces and lifting bridges were repaired and then sold as new perfect instruments while the bad neck angles and warped necks were setup and sold with nary a word said. If the customers asked me, I of course had to tell them that it was set up as best I could but it had issues, but the salesmen typically isolated me from the customers for that reason.

Now they have salaried techs under their thumb that have to lie to the customers or face the wrath of the coprorate home office.

Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

theguitarwhisperer wrote:
Now they have salaried techs under their thumb that have to lie to the customers or face the wrath of the coprorate home office.


Maybe your GC is better than mine, but There isn't much technician in their techs, whom don't get paid much buy the hour either. But I love em! They drive work to my shop at times, their shortcomings sure make me shine.

Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

This is a 2008, 4 yrs old and by the look of the bridge plate I don't think the instrument ever saw strings.

This is a case of quality control and likely was never intended to see the market place.

Anyway of finding out how it got into the sellers hands.

Also if its new, wouldn't it be covered under Gibson's warranty. Maybe sending it back would be the best course of action.

Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Funny how much the difference of workman ship is between the gibs and martins

Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

I always look inside if it's a rare or old guitar.
Or if there is a interior buzz/rattle.
I restored a 1850s Martin with the signature of the real C.F on the top.
It blew me away!
His workmanship was incredible -for that time especially.
I've fixed 2 guitars (classicals) sighned by Angel Romero-inside on the top also.
And a Barbero (Flamenco) with a dedication to someone-but a bad repair years ago
made the name un-readable.
Ya never know what your going to find inside a guitar!
Mc

Author:  nyazzip [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Quote:
late middle aged guys with dreams of recapturing their youth, and enough money to spend taking a shot at doing it

heh heh, exactly what goes thru my mind when i see PRSs...

Author:  Tom West [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Mark Tripp wrote:
Is that even a joint at the X intersection?!

Looks like they just cut one leg of the X in two, and just butted them up to the other....


Gibson has been known to do X braces in exactly this fashion.
Tom

Author:  Steve_E [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

forgive the ignorant question, but what am I missing??

The brace looks well quartered with straight grain across (little/no runout). Of course I can only make this supposition from the small section of the picture. What other criteria would there be? A bad brace is a bad brace and unless you load every brace prior to gluing up, is it possible to predict failure if it meets acceptable criteria?

Sorry,
Steve

Author:  Steve_E [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Thanks Todd,

I flex, but don't load. Perhaps I'll build some type of jig with a consistent weigh and begin keeping measurements.

Steve

Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

This is my favorite "inside the box" photo. A guy brought this "handmade" guitar in for a pickup installation. The builder had apparently marketed himself as quite a stud luthier. I am guessing that the intended scale length of the bracing plans and the scale of the purchased neck and fretboard didn't quite jive.

Image

Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Very cool!

Perhaps we shouldn't be so hard on the big guys.




But, then again... ...at least he capped the X.

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

B. Howard wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
Now they have salaried techs under their thumb that have to lie to the customers or face the wrath of the coprorate home office.


Maybe your GC is better than mine, but There isn't much technician in their techs, whom don't get paid much buy the hour either. But I love em! They drive work to my shop at times, their shortcomings sure make me shine.


No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A "certified Tech" that is certified by Guitar Center after 3 days of training, getting paid 8 bucks an hour. Their main function is to be a sales tool, so that when somebody looks at a guitar and asks "Has it been set up by a certified tech?" the employees can say "Sure it has!" And when the prospective customer goes and asks if the guitar needs anything, they can reassure the customer that no, everythings perfect! It's been set up!

Needless to say, they're not letting them spend the necessary time to level frets (even if they COULD, which most can't) or even give the guitar a really good once over, and I'm sure that they still don't send the lemons back to the factory, but the techs aren't allowed to tell the customers that they should get a different guitar without PO-ing the store manager, and since they've filled out a "checklist" card and initialed it, they have to back it up with talk or they look bad.

Thing is, they look REALLY bad when someone brings me a guitar with the checklist showing "frets checked", and they're still not level.

Author:  charliewood [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Terence Kennedy wrote:
This is my favorite "inside the box" photo. A guy brought this "handmade" guitar in for a pickup installation. The builder had apparently marketed himself as quite a stud luthier. I am guessing that the intended scale length of the bracing plans and the scale of the purchased neck and fretboard didn't quite jive.

Image



That guys working way outside of the box - wow what an innovation - this guys light years ahead of the pack..!!
Cheers
Charliewood

Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

It's been several years since I saw that disaster and as I think about it I think I decided that he used the StewMac 12 fret 000 plans and put a 14 fret neck on it. I do remember the owner paid $1500 for it. It had other issues. The builder later skipped town for parts unknown. Probably working at Gibson.

Author:  brazil66 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Well...I still like Gibsons, but I almost bought a L-00 Custom once...and happened to put a mirror in. The string ends were sucked into the top missing the bridge plate altogether.

M.

Author:  johnwalkerwaldsmith [ Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

I am myself a GC tech and Roberto Venn Graduate.... Maybe i shouldnt go into this but I got pretty pissed off reading some of your
comments about the Gc Techs.... for starters I dont have to bow to any corporate big guy telling me I cant tell a customer what I
think of any guitar. Obviously I dont bad mouth companys just to vent my opinion but neither would anybody else here that owned a music shop and sold that brand..... Also for somebody who wants to start in Luthiery as a carrer after spending $10000 on schooling for it would be stupid to turn down an hourly pay + commison (hourly pay is not $8 for graduates). Especially sense the only reason to turn it down would be for fear that some hot shot luthier would look down on him and asume he dosent know what hes doing because hes employed by a certain company.....i could go on for days but wont..... Im proud to make a living and support myself doing what I love and get upset when I see people who really have no idea how it works tearing it down.


Also I subscribe to the classifieds here just to help out this site because I come to this forum alot for help on my own building projects and really love the helpfull people on it. I thank you all for that help but if I am just a "guitar tech" and not a "Luthier" maybe I dont belong here.

Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

johnwalkerwaldsmith wrote:
I am myself a GC tech and Roberto Venn Graduate.... Maybe i shouldnt go into this but I got pretty pissed off reading some of your
comments about the Gc Techs.... for starters I dont have to bow to any corporate big guy telling me I cant tell a customer what I
think of any guitar. Obviously I dont bad mouth companys just to vent my opinion but neither would anybody else here that owned a music shop and sold that brand..... Also for somebody who wants to start in Luthiery as a carrer after spending $10000 on schooling for it would be stupid to turn down an hourly pay + commison (hourly pay is not $8 for graduates). Especially sense the only reason to turn it down would be for fear that some hot shot luthier would look down on him and asume he dosent know what hes doing because hes employed by a certain company.....i could go on for days but wont..... Im proud to make a living and support myself doing what I love and get upset when I see people who really have no idea how it works tearing it down.


Also I subscribe to the classifieds here just to help out this site because I come to this forum alot for help on my own building projects and really love the helpfull people on it. I thank you all for that help but if I am just a "guitar tech" and not a "Luthier" maybe I dont belong here.


Don't blame you for getting PO'd. I've dealt with folks at GC in several parts of the country and, like most stores, I've run into folks that run the gamut from totally clueless to happy to give you bad advice, to very knowledgeable. You know the old saying - it only takes one aw crap to wipe out ten attaboys I, for one, am glad to have you here and hope you'll stick around.

Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

Todd's great pictures inspired me to get a web cam with LED lights so I can document what my mirror shows me. It is a cheap offshore no name ( $8.00 ) with ability to manually focus and control the LED lights. My web cam program is not the greatest so now I am looking to improve on it. Made a cool video clip tour of the inside of a guitar I was working on.

Fred

Author:  brazil66 [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: An Answer to "Why Do You Look Inside?"

I like GC...and respect the people that work there. I think you belong here....maybe more than some, that consider this their stomping ground.

Enjoy your craft, and skip the politics.

Michael

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