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French Polishing is dangerous?!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=38035		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  rickoshea [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  French Polishing is dangerous?!
well, maybe not but .... does anyone else react badly to denatured alcohol fumes? The stuff I can get here in France is 90% ethanol 7% methanol and the 3% ... something else :lol: So a few days into finishing I get what I can only assume is a reaction to inhaling the fumes of this evil brew - headaches, nausea, the works (this was after buying solvent filters for my respirator mask). So basically - is there any substitute to denatured alcohol that can be used that will not make me feel like death for days afterwards?
Author:  WendyW [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I notice that whenever I open a bottle of denatured alcohol I immediately cough. Here in the US we have an alcohol called Everclear, which is a 190 proof alcohol for making mixed drinks and you buy it in a liquor store. It works great for dissolving shellac flakes and for French polishing. It is basically 95% alcohol. Maybe there is something similar there?
Author:  woody b [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
What kind of gloves are you wearing? It's possible you're absorbing the bad stuff through your skin.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I asked the "is grain alcohol available in Europe" question to a guitar maker in Granada that I know, and he didn't actually
know the answer - everyone gives their guitars to professional polishers, pretty much, and never ask what is going on there.
Author:  rickoshea [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  French Polishing is dangerous?!
There are a few different "alcohols" available here. The one I'm using is what I thought closest to denatured in the US but its mean stuff vapour wise. I wear nitrile gloves, or at least one glove for French polishing. I dunno how I'll get this one finished now ... the customer wants French polish lol
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I use 95 grain alcohol. It's very pricey compared to denaturated (12$ 1/2 liter 20$ 1 liter) but it's worth it.
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
If it's of any use to you, Spiritus, Polish vodka is available in Europe - 95% grain alcohol.
http://vodkaselection.com/alcool-95/spiritus/ for example
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
When in Spain recently, I walked into a pharmacy and pucrchased 99 percent pure alcohol and used it for French polishing.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
When in Spain recently, I walked into a pharmacy and pucrchased 99 percent pure alcohol and used it for French polishing.


Well there ya go. That's the stuff to use. Alex - it's expensive here too, more expensive than most regular vodkas or gins that you'd buy for consumption.

I don't think you can keep alcohol at 99 percent pure for longer than it takes to crack open the bottle, can you? It's too hygroscopic.
Author:  murrmac [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
callyrox wrote:
I notice that whenever I open a bottle of denatured alcohol I immediately cough. Here in the US we have an alcohol called Everclear, which is a 190 proof alcohol for making mixed drinks and you buy it in a liquor store. It works great for dissolving shellac flakes and for French polishing. It is basically 95% alcohol. Maybe there is something similar there?


190 proof alcohol, Wendy ?

I don't think so, the maximum proof, which would be for 100% alcohol, is 175. It doesn't get any higher. It's kinda like absolute zero, −273.15° Celsius, you can't get any colder ...
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
murrmac wrote:
callyrox wrote:
I notice that whenever I open a bottle of denatured alcohol I immediately cough. Here in the US we have an alcohol called Everclear, which is a 190 proof alcohol for making mixed drinks and you buy it in a liquor store. It works great for dissolving shellac flakes and for French polishing. It is basically 95% alcohol. Maybe there is something similar there?


190 proof alcohol, Wendy ?

I don't think so, the maximum proof, which would be for 100% alcohol, is 175. It doesn't get any higher. It's kinda like absolute zero, −273.15° Celsius, you can't get any colder ...


?? I was of the understanding that 200 proof is pure.

My Everclear bottle says 190.
Author:  woody b [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
murrmac wrote:
callyrox wrote:
I notice that whenever I open a bottle of denatured alcohol I immediately cough. Here in the US we have an alcohol called Everclear, which is a 190 proof alcohol for making mixed drinks and you buy it in a liquor store. It works great for dissolving shellac flakes and for French polishing. It is basically 95% alcohol. Maybe there is something similar there?


190 proof alcohol, Wendy ?

I don't think so, the maximum proof, which would be for 100% alcohol, is 175. It doesn't get any higher. It's kinda like absolute zero, −273.15° Celsius, you can't get any colder ...



200 proof = 100% alcohol.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Ah-ha! Wikipedia reveals that the UK uses 7/4 times the alcohol volume as the proof measure, so 175 = pure. Another example of two countries separated by a common language.

Does that mean that 80 proof Scotch is stronger than 80 proof Bourbon, or is there relabeling going on?
Author:  Spyder [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Jim Kirby wrote:
Ah-ha! Wikipedia reveals that the UK uses 7/4 times the alcohol volume as the proof measure, so 175 = pure. Another example of two countries separated by a common language.

Does that mean that 80 proof Scotch is stronger than 80 proof Bourbon, or is there relabeling going on?


After drinking 4/7 of the bottle, does it matter? laughing6-hehe
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
That's strange, only the Everclear has ever made me feel like death all over the day after. Oh you are using it as a finish? Never mind. ;)

It's my understanding that proof is equal to twice the alcohol. So 80 proof would be 40% alcohol and so on. I can't get Everclear here in Virginia unfortunately so I just used hardware store denatured alcohol but it doesn't smell any worse then the potable kind.
Author:  rickoshea [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
thanks all ... I may do what Robbie did and call in the Pharmacie here to see if they can give me some other stuff thats somewhat less "pungent". Or I could go home to Ireland and get a bottle of poteen and use that [:Y:] :lol:
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I would suggest you stop using the product.

Here's some info on methanol which is likely your issue.

Methanol has a high toxicity in humans. If ingested, for example, as little as 10 mL of pure methanol can cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve, and 30 mL is potentially fatal,[13] although the median lethal dose is typically 100 mL (4 fl oz) (i.e. 1–2 mL/kg of pure methanol[14]). Toxic effects take hours to start, and effective antidotes can often prevent permanent damage.[13] Because of its similarities in both appearance and odor to ethanol (the alcohol in beverages), it is difficult to differentiate between the two (such is also the case with denatured alcohol).

Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. First, methanol (whether it enters the body by ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through the skin) can be fatal due to its CNS depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. Second, in a process of toxication, it is metabolized to formic acid (which is present as the formate ion) via formaldehyde in a process initiated by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver.[15] Methanol is converted to formaldehyde via alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) and formaldehyde is converted to formic acid (formate) via aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH). The conversion to formate via ALDH proceeds completely, with no detectable formaldehyde remaining.[16] Formate is toxic because it inhibits mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase, causing the symptoms of hypoxia at the cellular level, and also causing metabolic acidosis, among a variety of other metabolic disturbances.[17]

More information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Just use 190 proof grain alcohol. No fillers, and you can sip a bit if u like [:Y:]
Author:  bobgramann [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I live in Virginia. I called the local Alcoholic Beverage Control Office and applied for a permit to buy grain alcohol. An officer came to my shop and inspected my operation to make sure that I didn't plan to actually drink the stuff. I got the permit and now can buy Everclear at the local ABC store. It's expensive but worth it. A bottle lasts a long time.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Bob, check to see if they have Diesel Grain Neutral Spririts in the ABC store. It'll save you a couple of bucks a 5th and it's the same stuff, essentially. They used to carry it here in NC, before they stopped carrying 190 proof stuff. Now it's all special order, and you have to buy a case.
Author:  bobgramann [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
They only sell the 190 proof by permit, so they don't care about price or variety. The biggest user in town that I know about cleans the ice cream machines with it. Sometimes, when I'm in another state I can get a better deal, but all of the states seem to have raised the prices significantly in the past few years. It's like they think people drink the stuff and have to have it.
Author:  murrmac [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Most every chemical will cause some people to display an allergic reaction.

In the case of denatured alcohol, or "methylated spirits" as it is known in the UK, I have used it every other day for nigh on 40 years, and have never had any reaction to it ( I don't drink the stuff, but my skin comes in contact with it plenty) Same goes for many other cabinetmakers of my acquaintance. So, I wouldn't get too paranoid about the alleged toxicity ...although naturally you don't ever want to ingest it.

btw, it's the best thing I have ever come across for removing surplus epoxy.
Author:  nickton [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
I think my skin is so calloused now it must be like working with gloves on. I use denatured alcohol all the time. I live in an area with many refineries, and I think the tap water may be worse for me. My constant sneezing has little to do with the alcohol I'm sure. If I wear gloves, they are cheap cotton ones, and only to cut down on finger prints and accidental smears. :|
Author:  JoeUlman [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
In the U.S., denatured alcohol, at least the hardware store brands I’ve had experience with contain as much as 50% methanol and have additional ingredients that give it a horrifically sickening smell. The smell alone is enough for me to not want to open the stuff in the house and I certainly wouldn’t want my face in the vapors for the many combined hours it takes to French-polish a guitar.

As for the dangers from exposure to methanol and any other toxic ingredients, the product MSDS will list these and any precautions that should be followed.

Joe
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: French Polishing is dangerous?!
Fiddes 'Finishing Spirit' might be an option. I depends on how much it costs to ship it to France. It is supposedly ethanol with a touch of Shellac added, intended for spiriting off in French polishing use.
I've used it and there does seem to be very little Shellac in it. Makes me almost think that it's a way to circumvent the alcohol tax laws.
The cost of the finishing spirit is roughly inline with Methylated Spirits (denatured alcohol).
Usually around 5 to 10 % methanol content here in the UK. I've never had a bad reaction to it but at least the Fiddes is an alternative.

http://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalog/F ... pirit.html
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