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Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
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Author:  DarrenFiggs [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Interesting article by Somogyi:

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... ntasy.aspx
Author:  B. Howard [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
I'm never quite sure how to take him, especially in writing. Having met him, it's a lot easier to tell when he is poking a bit of fun in person, which he generally seems to be to at least to a small extent most times. As for "Moon Wood"? I didn't waste a day on it but aside from one Swiss supplier of tone woods selling the stuff most other info points back to the Somogyi article you reference. I could find no hard data, no real studies, just the company selling and some Wiccan references. Looks like more slick marketing to me, and I suspect that may be what Ervin may have been poking at.
Author:  woody b [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Maybe we need to start dropping our pants and "moon" our wood before we use it. Pictures aren't necessary :o
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Having read quite a bit of Somogyi I've noticed he often contributes to the mystique of luthrie. Dare I assume this to be his objective? Other times he's informative. If Somogyi is poking fun in this article his wit is a bit subtle for a magazine that presumably serves its readers.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
well...it is a fact that the gravity well of the moon creates tides...and said effect is at it's peak then the moon is either full or new...so I guess it is possible that there is some effect seen on plant life (being as they are usually full of water)...other than that God only knows if Ervin is playing around or not...
Author:  profchris [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
I suspect the gravitational effect of the other trees nearby is greater than that of the moon. I choose my wood by its aura :roll:
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Poppycock, a cow pinched a loaf somewhere, and now I'm glad I bought Trevor's book instead of Somogyi's as my respect and esteem for Somogyi has decreased slightly.

Even IF the moon had even a slight effect based on tidal whatever, the lunar phases have nothing to do with it, as the phases have t do with how the sun is reflecting. Even if the moon is completely dark, it's still there, gravitationally speaking.

Even if the phases had something to do with how much water is in the tree when it's felled, it's then dried before use. The water in the vascular tissues is not the bound water in the cell walls or elsewhere, and so shouldn't matter once dried.

The language suggests that Somogyi considers the differences in weight and density to be attributable to the phases of the moon at the time of harvesting, with no other information!

Either he's serious in which case he's a fool, or he's having fun, in which case he sounds serious and to me is indistinguishable from his serious informative side so that I cannot tell the difference. Either case is useless to me.
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
theguitarwhisperer wrote:

Even IF the moon had even a slight effect based on tidal whatever, the lunar phases have nothing to do with it, as the phases have t do with how the sun is reflecting. Even if the moon is completely dark, it's still there, gravitationally speaking.


incorrect...the phase of the moon is determined by it's position relative to the sun...when full the moon is on the opposite side of the planet of the sun...when new it's between the earth and the sun (the sun is lighting the backside of the moon)...

tidal forces are calculated accordingly...read up on it...pretty basic astrophysics...

not that I'm defending Somogyi, rather pointing out the facts of our solar system...
Author:  B. Howard [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Zlurgh wrote:
Having read quite a bit of Somogyi I've noticed he often contributes to the mystique of luthrie. Dare I assume this to be his objective?


Sometimes I believe that is it exactly. Without mysticism there can be no gurus.
Author:  peter.coombe [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Whether it is poppycock or not I don't know (and don't care), but that Swiss mob that sell "Moon wood" have some dang nice Spruce.
Author:  Shaw [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Even if this is true can we trust the lumber industry when they tell us that the wood they are trying to sell us more likely for a premium was cut during a full moon? Probably not! There are charlatans in every industry including the luthier wood industry. Probably even more so....Mike
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Reading closely, Somogyi is pretty careful to present this wisdom of the ancients' without actually stating that he is convinced or has implemented this concept in his wood purchasing.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Jeff Highland wrote:
Reading closely, Somogyi is pretty careful to present this wisdom of the ancients' without actually stating that he is convinced or has implemented this concept in his wood purchasing.


Reading closely, Somogyi describes his methodology somewhat for choosing wood as being based on a stiffness to weight ratio, mentions that he has noticed a huge variation in the wood characteristics, then says this: "This practice of wood felling is built on many centuries of empirical experience and observation, and it yields woods of consistently different density, durability, and working properties."
Sounds like he's saying this is empirically tested and scientific, and therefore reliable, as it's based on centuries of data, presumably meticulously collected and scientifically documented. So it sounds like he believes that the phases of the moon DO have an effect on the wood he ultimately chooses without specifically looking for it based on that.
Mike_P wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:

Even IF the moon had even a slight effect based on tidal whatever, the lunar phases have nothing to do with it, as the phases have t do with how the sun is reflecting. Even if the moon is completely dark, it's still there, gravitationally speaking.


incorrect...the phase of the moon is determined by it's position relative to the sun...when full the moon is on the opposite side of the planet of the sun...when new it's between the earth and the sun (the sun is lighting the backside of the moon)...

tidal forces are calculated accordingly...read up on it...pretty basic astrophysics...

not that I'm defending Somogyi, rather pointing out the facts of our solar system...


Again, EVEN IF the phases of the mood had an effect on the water level in the vascular tissues of the trees as they are felled (it does not) then it STILL would not matter as the water is removed from the wood as it is dried. The density of the wood and the stiffness to weight ratio have well understood mechanisms. No mystery there. Genetics and speed of growth are the factors.

Trees don't absorb water from the ground based on tidal forces.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
I agree it's BS, Somogyi is just leaving himself an out by being vague about whether he has adopted these practices.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Jeff Highland wrote:
I agree it's BS, Somogyi is just leaving himself an out by being vague about whether he has adopted these practices.


So why write the article unless the point truly IS to encourage mysticism?
Author:  CharlieT [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Jeff Highland wrote:
I agree it's BS, Somogyi is just leaving himself an out by being vague about whether he has adopted these practices.

Somogyi, vague? Come on...! ;)

The Swiss spruce is nice wood, to be sure, but I suspect it would be equally nice whether the tide was in or out when it was harvested.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
B. Howard wrote:
Zlurgh wrote:
Having read quite a bit of Somogyi I've noticed he often contributes to the mystique of luthrie. Dare I assume this to be his objective?


Sometimes I believe that is it exactly. Without mysticism there can be no gurus.
i´m with you guys on this. ES does sometimes seem to get carried away by his style - however witty, even remarkable, that "style" can be. the article in question is of very little informative value, as it limits itself to letting vague information slip, without scrutinizing or analyzing it. one can only wonder about Mr. Somogyi´s (whose work i greatly admire) intentions here, although there´s a rhetoric hint in the citation of Pliny and the usage of Mr. Zurcher seems like the classic authority move (invocation of an expert or facts to increase the credibility of a message to one´s own advantage).

The subject is an old one, though, and has been debated extensively elsewhere (eg: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... DtFyKllT59 for more info on some of the arguments that do substantiate the debate). on top of the Zurcher article (which i have, but i think i´d be infringing copyright issues if i distributed it) , Mr.Somogyi could point out this other article, by A. Trewavas: http://www.howplantswork.com/wp/wp-cont ... _et_al.pdf . never underestimate the urge of an academic to publish articles, my father often warns me.

cheers,
miguel.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
mqbernardo wrote:
[...] on top of the Zurcher article (which i have, but i think i´d be infringing copyright issues if i distributed it) , [...]


Here the Google Book version which misses seven out of the article's 15 pages (copyright issue) but provides enough information to hopefully help some people to get an idea what "moon wood" is about.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
There's a potentially more interesting article by Zurcher and colleagues:

Ernst Zu ̈rcher, R. Schlaepfer, M. Conedera, F. Giudici, 2010, Looking for differences in wood properties as a function of the felling date: lunar phase-correlated variations in the drying behavior of Norway Spruce (Picea abies Karst.) and Sweet Chestnut (Castanea sativa Mill.), Trees, 24:31-41

where more of an attempt to track variations in density in felled trees as a function of lunar cycle through direct measurements is made. The 2001 article does seem to be nothing more than a compendium of the background info the author could dig out, presumably as a starting point. At any rate, the 2010 article is much more interesting. The authors claim that the lunar cycle hypothesis is supported by the data, but the statistics seem fairly weak to me. But interesting.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Jim Kirby wrote:
Ernst Zu ̈rcher, R. Schlaepfer, M. Conedera, F. Giudici, 2010, Looking for differences in wood properties as a function of the felling date: lunar phase-correlated variations in the drying behavior of Norway Spruce (Picea abies Karst.) and Sweet Chestnut (Castanea sativa Mill.), Trees, 24:31-41.


Not speaking necessarily as an anti-academic, I expect these guys wanted that title to be, "Hoping for differences in wood properties as a function of the felling date..."....since all human beings seek affirmation. But unless their data unequivocally supports their theory then all we have with the book is a work of "faction". Had their data amply supported their theory the resulting affirmation of their peers would be great but the simple exercise of writing the book has its own reward.

Having close contact with several academics it would seem that within their world, to simply postulate a theory and then write and publish a book on it will elevate the author into a club, into an advanced echelon. What fascinates me is that the content of the book isn't the main issue as long as the premise stimulates a discussion of possibilities. The banter of enlightenment is what 'does it' for these guys. I'm not suggesting this is abhorrent in any way...but there is a lack of discernment among non-academics that ascribes far too much credibility to the unproven premises and theories of academics.

It's the folks that operate in that place between sincere belief and proven fact that annoy me most. They often borrow the integrity of academia (such as it is) and use it to prop themselves up. I'm not suggesting Somogyi is absolutely one of these people. The work of Mr. Somogyi's hands speaks for itself...and it establishes his integrity. That integrity didn't come easily so I don't understand why anyone would risk something earned so honestly for the benefits of a lesser affirmation. That truly baffles me.

If the tides, relative to the felling of trees, has any material affect of any kind on lumber...I expect it will be so minuscule, so indiscernible...that the world of doers will shrug.
Author:  Mike_P [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
upon rereading Somogyi's article I seem unable to find the 3 points he refers to...I only see one which is discussed...

even though the term full moon wood is used it would appear as if it is actually new moon wood which is the best tone wood...thinking about this, and noting that the gravitational effect of the moon is pretty damned small as compared to earth's gravity, I can only think of it being the actual light of the moon...sure, it's reflected light not direct, but it is light nonetheless...I can actually see how a tree might be more active during a full moon as perhaps it's 'thinking' there is lots of light so I will try and grow more...and perhaps during a new moon it (the tree) is only seeing light for half of the day...

I also find it interesting just how much narrow minded vehemence is being reflected against even considering any correlation between moon phases and properties of organic organisms...reminds me of a couple of physics professors that had some serious issues about my thoughts on the incorrectness of the arguments against the possibility of faster than light travel...wouldn't even let me have a discussion with them to even hear why I thought (still do) that way...just got labeled a heretic for even considering that Einstein was wrong (even he admitted it might be possible)...
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Mike_P wrote:

I also find it interesting just how much narrow minded vehemence is being reflected against even considering any correlation between moon phases and properties of organic organisms...reminds me of a couple of physics professors that had some serious issues about my thoughts on the incorrectness of the arguments against the possibility of faster than light travel...wouldn't even let me have a discussion with them to even hear why I thought (still do) that way...just got labeled a heretic for even considering that Einstein was wrong (even he admitted it might be possible)...


I bet you also believe ESP, Telekinesis, and Telepathy are also possibilities. I don't, and am therefore narrow minded? If the theory of relativity weren't emperically tested and proven to be true, maybe your professors would have considered it a discussion worthy of their time.
Author:  Mike_P [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
riddle me this,

for whom does m -> ∞ as an object approaches c?

and using Einsteinian terms, for whom have his postulated effects been proven?
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
Mike_P wrote:
riddle me this,

for whom does m -> ∞ as an object approaches c?

and using Einsteinian terms, for whom have his postulated effects been proven?


I can't. So?

Your professors could, and apparently they knew better than to try and educate you beyond the classroom.
Author:  Mike_P [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ahhwoooooo, Werewood of London!!!!!!
are personal attacks the best you can do?

if you are unable to understand any simple aspect of relativity (either general or special) then perhaps you should refrain from making pompous statements...

for someone who so freely states "If the theory of relativity weren't emperically tested and proven to be true" about a subject you obviously know nothing about you sure seem to be unable to deal with the centuries of empirical data from tonewood suppliers and luthiers of other nations...I for one am not surprised...
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