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| Kerfing Discussion http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37456 |
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| Author: | Chris Ensor [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Kerfing Discussion |
We rarely talk about kerfing around here. So let's start up a discussion on what type of kerfing you use and why. Do you think one type has a certain tonal advantage over another type? |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I hate when people see the need to Kerf ! Every other word is a Kerf word ! Sheesh !  Seriously , I prefer the reverse stuff , seems easier to work with and more stable in the long run . However that is the opinion of a relative Newbie. I really dont see how that could effect the tone , but I guess its possible . |
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| Author: | rasmus [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Standard shape 5mm wide sapele kerfling. I might just switch to something fancier for the looks. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I have recently decided to go away from kerfed linings and try solid linings instead (edit: suppose I should say laminated). However, of the kerfed linings I prefer the reverse kerfed - I like the looks and I like the fact that they stiffen up the rim while getting the box closed up. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I use laminate my linings with integral swarf. It is nice and stiff; but truth be told, I do it because it takes about the same time as it would to but all the kerfs. Well that and it allows me to tuck in my side reinforcements. |
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| Author: | Rodger Knox [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I've also gone to laminated linings, 4 or 5 at 1/16" thick. At that thickness both oak and poplar are a breeze to bend, and it's a lot quicker to cut 16 to 20 strips that it is to cut 1000 kerfs into 4 strips ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad")
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
all this is , is a glue surface to attach the top or back to the sides. The more mass you put into the guitar the more tone you will rob but you would have to add a great deal to make this have a big effect. I am not a fan of reverse as this can blow symmetry if you don't get it in right. If I free built I may use it as it will make the side rigid to the shape but adds no strength. Some people do like the look of it. Make up your own mind to what works for you . |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I currently use reversed kerfed lining. I feel it's really clean looking. I just started making my own, we'll see how that goes. I would eventually like to start using solid laminated lining, I think you could get a little more creative with that (aesthetically) |
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| Author: | Chas Freeborn [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Old school here. I make it up in batches of a dozen guitars worth or so. Mahogany or Sapele. I may try a run in Basswood to use on blond bodies. As for tonal differences, I doubt anyone could differentiate in a blind listening test. It's function is purely structural (to give added glue surface). -C |
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| Author: | Chris Ensor [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I like where this is going so far. I will add that I use reversed (spanish cedar) because I like the look. I was talking to Cory Batson a while back and he said he believed that reverse kerfing adds sustain and reflection to the body by stiffening the back/sides. He also makes his a bit wider with the same purpose in mind. Any thoughts on that? |
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| Author: | Quine [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I hope someday I can build guitars well enough that the linings will have a perceptible effect on the tone. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I am far from an engineer so. . . solid/laminated linings make the rim nice and stiff (I assume the same applies to reverse-kerfed linings). But once the top and back are glued on, it seems to me that kerfed or solid would be about the same stiffness. The kerf are all in a different plane, once the plate is glued to them they should be plenty stiff. . . |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I like Ryan A-4 Kerfed linings. Like the look, the ease of use, and the minimal squeeze-out due to the many tiny kerfs. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Reversed linings are favored here mainly for the reason of neater installation of brace ends. No differentiation at the brace,lining meeting area. Also no blow-outs when cutting brace recesses. Old traditions die so hard. I hear some folks are still using that old german silver fret wire..................!!!  Tom |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
laminated solid linings 
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Dentellones  Well, on the soundboard anyway. I make them about 1/16~1/8" wider than the purfling I plan to use. I sand them so they fit butted up against eachother with no gaps between them.On the back, I use whatever seems like a good idea at the time. I use side braces that span the full width of the sides, so my lining strips are short segments that fit between them. One style I've been liking lately when using softer top woods like redwood, is to make kerfed linings out of the offcuts just by pushing a chisel into it to cut most of the way through. Since I don't normally do more than one veneer strip of purfling on the back, the linings there don't need to be very thick, so the chisel kerfing is possible. As far as stiffness and weight go... it seems to me that stiffness of the rim is most important on the soundboard to minimize neck reset-necessitating distortion, since that's the one that's really being pulled out of shape by the strings on the bridge. So, laminated solid linings for the soundboard would probably be a good idea, except it's not really compatible with my freeform building style. The back doesn't seem like it matters quite so much, so I don't bother with solid linings there either. Weight seems to be a debate... bluescreek wrote: The more mass you put into the guitar the more tone you will rob but you would have to add a great deal to make this have a big effect. I prefer ultra-light construction as well, but I wouldn't say it "robs tone", considering how much success Trevor Gore seems to be having with his massive sides style. How do you quantify tone anyway? Seems to me that the massive sides approach may add volume, but may take away complexity by isolating the plates from the rims and therefore from eachother. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I'm just waiting for Howard Klepper to show up here... |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
dentellones for the top, solid linings for the back so far. pretty conservative, does the job. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
DennisK wrote: I prefer ultra-light construction as well, but I wouldn't say it "robs tone", considering how much success Trevor Gore seems to be having with his massive sides style. How do you quantify tone anyway? Seems to me that the massive sides approach may add volume, but may take away complexity by isolating the plates from the rims and therefore from eachother. just a question (not a trick-one): isn´t (at least most of) the coupling done via the air inside the box?
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
mqbernardo wrote: DennisK wrote: I prefer ultra-light construction as well, but I wouldn't say it "robs tone", considering how much success Trevor Gore seems to be having with his massive sides style. How do you quantify tone anyway? Seems to me that the massive sides approach may add volume, but may take away complexity by isolating the plates from the rims and therefore from eachother. just a question (not a trick-one): isn´t (at least most of) the coupling done via the air inside the box?Yup. Plus if the sides vibrate, they should at least get somewhat damped out by the parts contacting your body, so coupling through the sides probably isn't a large effect in any case. I need to try massive sides sometime... I can definitely see how it would be mathematically superior. Just need to see if it's audibly superior And if it's worth making the overall instrument heavier, since I prefer the feel of light weight.
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Obligatory 'they are called linings, not kerfings' post. I use solid linings. It's easy to just bend them along with the sides, and they make the rims nice and stiff which in turn makes the rim easy to sand down in a radius dish to fit the top and back. I build on a solera - no mold - and find this works best for me. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
Obligatory "Defense of Kerfing" post Many people, top luthiers included, call them "Kerfings", therefore it could legitimately be said the linings are also called kerfings. However, there IS a certain snob appeal to insisting that all luthiers everywhere should only call them Kerfed Linings. It's just proper, kinda like the Queen's English...... |
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| Author: | ernie [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
I prefer tentellones for the top, and laminated linings 2mm thick for backs. Have also used kerfed linings, for smaller instruments like ukes where it is kerfing for the top and laminated linings for the back. I use hide glue for installing the tentellones and fast tack white glue or titrbond for the laminated linings.. Have made tentellones from WRC , basswood , black willow, cottonwood , spruce sycamore, for laminated linings soft maple , black willow , ash , walnut, honduras mahog. sycamore , I/m also laminating my sides with veneers sometimes, which makes for a vy rigid form. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
tentellones for tops, either solid laminated linings or store-bought regular kerfed linings for backs. (Classical and flamenco) |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kerfing Discussion |
NO No, Todd, it's solid kerfing! |
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