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How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37317		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I had a piece of binding break on me the other day - and had to bend a replacement piece. Read on.

Ok - assumption #1 is that you are using a fox-style bending machine. (I got mine via Blues Creek)

I am using the following "sandwich" from top to bottom:
Heating blanket
Spring Steel
Foil
Craft Paper
Binding
Craft Paper
Foil
Spring Steel

As is typical, I put the sandwich in the bender and go for it. No issues.

Now.... tell me how you remove your binding after it is bent? I first release the spring clamps out at the ends and then unwind the waist caul.

My issue is that when releasing the pressure, the spring steel on the very bottom wants to push up (flatten out) and it ends up breaking my binding (on occasions - like when I'm only bending a couple pieces)

So..... I've taken to bending some long nails into a "U" shape and slide them into the cross rod holes on my pattern - thus holding the bottom piece of spring steel in place while releasing the pressure on things. Sliding the U nails into the holes to hold the outside edges of the spring steel is quite easy. The tough one is getting the one slid in to hold the waist down.

So.... what are YOU doing? Am I being an total fool and missing something obvious?

Really sucks when you break that last piece of binding you have on hand that matches everything else.

I can send photos if you don't understand my system.
Author:  DavidFreeman [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
it's a little tricky if you're by yourself, often in our classes we use two people so one can hold things in place while the other person takes the top steel off, then the wood, then the bottom steel. It sounds like you're getting your sides out alright though, so you could do what we do and tape your binding to the edge of your side when you bend, not too much masking tape so you don't have a gummy mess, but a little bit on each end will do the trick (use the untrue edge so you can still locate your waist when bending).
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
How thick is your spring steel ?? I use 10 thou, and havent had any issues simply releasing the ends and then the waist, and taking out the binding .... even on venetians
Author:  Pat Foster [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Attachment:
DSCN5484.jpg


Romex staples, about $3 per 100. Two at each end, two at the waist, right after the bend is complete. Keep them short enough so they don't interfere with the blanket.

Simple!

Pat
Author:  L. Presnall [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Pat, as usual, that's simple, yet brilliant! [clap]
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Pat - yep - looks similar to what I have done. I actually don't put them in until things have cooled. The easy ones are on the end. The tricky one for me is in the middle at the waist as the guide slot for the waist caul doesn't allow much room for fingers to get in there.



Pat Foster wrote:
Attachment:
DSCN5484.jpg


Romex staples, about $3 per 100. Two at each end, two at the waist, right after the bend is complete. Keep them short enough so they don't interfere with the blanket.

Simple!

Pat
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Paul, I've added a couple of cable tie downs on my lower spring steel slat that I just run out through the waist caul slot and tie the lower slat down after the bend is complete. That way when I release the bender after its cooled down the lower slat stays down (now tied at the ends and the waist) on the form and makes removal a little less stressful.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Jim Watts wrote:
Paul, I've added a couple of cable tie downs on my lower spring steel slat that I just run out through the waist caul slot and tie the lower slat down after the bend is complete. That way when I release the bender after its cooled down the lower slat stays down (now tied at the ends and the waist) on the form and makes removal a little less stressful.



Photo?
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I use heavy aluminum flashing instead of spring steel so I don't have any problem with breaking bindings.
Author:  woody b [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Whenever possible I bend the binding the same time I bend the sides. If I have to bend binding by itself I......struggle........or bend it with a bending iron.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I would just attach some steel or flashing to my forms - but my thought is that when I clamp the wood between the 2 layers of steel - and the heating blanket on top - that the "sandwich" helps to transfer heat to the wood. Yes? No? The bottom slat also helps to support the wood. Yes? No?

So by eliminating the bottom slat my brain says that heating the wood before the bend would respond differently.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I bent staples from coat hanger ...about 3/4w x 1"lg... & insert into holes in the form to capture the inner slat. Two on each end & two either side of the ram.Then raise the ram fully, remove the top slat & jockey out the form (have to remove one ram pair of staples) 'till there's clearance to lift out the wood.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I won't use the spring steel. I use stainless steel. Yes, I need to flatten it out after I use it, but it's not that much of an issue. And the SS won't transfer any oxidized material either.

But the OP is using spring steel, so my post here is pointless unless he wishes to switch.

Mike
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Paul, I'll try to post a picture this evening for you.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Todd Stock wrote:
I use very strong spring steel...weird.



What do you mean... "weird"?
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I put a spring clamp on each end of the lower slat and connect them with brown binding tape. I can lift the top off my bender so the side or binding pops right out.

Image

Image
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Wait a second...you mean taking it out in pieces and gluing it back together is not the most common method?


I have actually never had an issue and I don't do anything to hold the inner slat. Now that I know that others have this problem, I probably will pull my binding out in pieces.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Here's a picture of the way I tie down my inner slat. I added the waist cables just to give me more vertical room to maneuver the side out. The second picture shows how the inner slat stays down after the top slat has been removed.
Attachment:
bender1.jpg


Attachment:
bender2.jpg
Author:  Paul Burner [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Todd, pay attention to the board please laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

I am not having problems with side removal. The problem was removing a piece of binding that I had to bend.

I typically gang up my binding with purfling between each piece - and then bend them all as one group - which causes me no issue.

I've had a couple times where a piece of binding didn't bend properly - like the other night. So... I only needed to bend 1 piece. Knowing that I would probably have an issue I ganged up this 1 piece of ebony with a couple pieces of scrap cutoffs I had around - but they were pretty thin and narrow.

I taped all this up and bent it.

When I removed the pressure from my waist caul, the lower spring steel flexed up - and I could hear the piece of ebony crack.


Todd Stock wrote:
Weird as in never have seen any issues with side removal, other than on tight cutaways...even with stiff spring steel slats and highly figured stuff. If you are breaking sides, could it be that the sides are becoming overly brittle in the bending process? In other words, is that a bending process issue versus a removal problem?
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
I also use heavy slats and have not had any issues breaking anything. I just tie the waist down to give me a little more room.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Maybe I need to be educated on this. What exactly is this reason for using spring steel in a Fox style bender? When released from the bender, the spring steel will put large stresses on the sides and bindings. Yes, it won't deform like SS, but it can (unless protected with foil) stain the wood. Other than deformation, what is the advantage of using spring steel?

Mike
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do YOU remove binding from a bending machine???
Mike O'Melia wrote:
Maybe I need to be educated on this. What exactly is this reason for using spring steel in a Fox style bender? When released from the bender, the spring steel will put large stresses on the sides and bindings. Yes, it won't deform like SS, but it can (unless protected with foil) stain the wood. Other than deformation, what is the advantage of using spring steel?

Mike


I guess I'll have to defer to John Hall as he is the one who sold it to me. I really don't know the answer.

Sort like asking what my wife sees in me. gash I guess you'd have to ask her.
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