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Talking about butt joints
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37095		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Talking about butt joints
I've got two boxes with rough necks that are ready to go together and I'm interested in trying a plain butt joint. Can some of you share how you do your butts?
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Talking about butt joints
I do squats. They keep my butt tight. It's bathing suit season after all.
Author:  jac68984 [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
jac68984 wrote:
Mike,

I, like Filippo, use a simple heel or butt style neck joint with two brass inserts. Check out Kathy Matsushita's website: http://home.comcast.net/~kathymatsushit ... ive22.html

She has some pictures of the process that may clarify some of your questions. The link is to one size 5 guitar she built, but if you go to the main page, there are other projects that similarly describe the process.

I really like this neck joint. Seems plenty strong, super easy to fit, and I can't tell any difference in the amount of sustain/tone from similarly built guitars with other types of neck joints like dovetail or M&T. I don't really see a downside to it. Many other builders, from Taylor to well respected members of this forum, have used such a joint to build many, many guitars.

Aaron


The above is from an older post. I've since tried out some other types of joint to facilitate thinner heels, but I still really like a simple butt joint when neck design permits it.
Author:  CharlieT [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Steve - I'm interested in using a butt joint on my next build too, so this thread is of great interest to me. Thanks for starting it.

I'm curious about the sequence used by those who use a butt joint. Do you set the neck angle and then drill for and install the bolts, and then shape the neck? Or, do you shape the neck and get everything lined up, both "vertically" and "horizontally", and install the bolts before shaping the neck? Obviously, I have not thought this through very well yet.

Steve - hopefully my question is of interest to you as well, and thus won't be considered a hijack. :mrgreen:
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
What I do is pre drill the holes in the neck block and counter sink them. I drill the holes slightly larger than the bolts to handle any play necessary to line things up. I then build my neck blank and rough cut the heal dimensions. Then set the neck angle using a straight edge to measure the bridge height at the saddle location accounting for fretboard thickness and fret wire height. I clamp the neck to the body with a long clamp from the tail block to the heal. Once that is set I drill the holes for the brass inserts and then epoxy them in. They are drilled about 1/8in deep, not flush, to facilitate a neck reset in the future. Then I glue on the fretboard and shape the neck.

Simple as that.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I do squats. They keep my butt tight. It's bathing suit season after all.


I knew it was coming Tony duh

Charlie, you can't hijack this one cause it's an open discussion.


jfmckenna wrote:
What I do is pre drill the holes in the neck block and counter sink them. I drill the holes slightly larger than the bolts to handle any play necessary to line things up. I then build my neck blank and rough cut the heal dimensions. Then set the neck angle using a straight edge to measure the bridge height at the saddle location accounting for fretboard thickness and fret wire height. I clamp the neck to the body with a long clamp from the tail block to the heal. Once that is set I drill the holes for the brass inserts and then epoxy them in. They are drilled about 1/8in deep, not flush, to facilitate a neck reset in the future. Then I glue on the fretboard and shape the neck.

Simple as that.


Ok, so my boxes are built - how do you drill the holes with the neck clamped on? I was just going to mark them, take off the neck, and then drill them square to the surface.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
SteveSmith wrote:
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I do squats. They keep my butt tight. It's bathing suit season after all.


I knew it was coming Tony duh

Charlie, you can't hijack this one cause it's an open discussion.


jfmckenna wrote:
What I do is pre drill the holes in the neck block and counter sink them. I drill the holes slightly larger than the bolts to handle any play necessary to line things up. I then build my neck blank and rough cut the heal dimensions. Then set the neck angle using a straight edge to measure the bridge height at the saddle location accounting for fretboard thickness and fret wire height. I clamp the neck to the body with a long clamp from the tail block to the heal. Once that is set I drill the holes for the brass inserts and then epoxy them in. They are drilled about 1/8in deep, not flush, to facilitate a neck reset in the future. Then I glue on the fretboard and shape the neck.

Simple as that.


Ok, so my boxes are built - how do you drill the holes with the neck clamped on? I was just going to mark them, take off the neck, and then drill them square to the surface.


Oh yeah I need to be more clear. I measure where the holes are supposed to be and then drill. The neck is not clamped on. I used to reach in with the drill bit used to drill the holes and scratch the mark on the heal block but I found it more accurate to just measure from the top edge of the guitar to the center of the hole. I then take a combination ruler and slide the metal level angle guide thingie off and rest that on the block with the neck in a vise to guide my drilling straight.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
SteveSmith wrote:
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I do squats. They keep my butt tight. It's bathing suit season after all.


I knew it was coming Tony duh



Everyone has a role in life. Mine is to be the comic relief when I am not being uber serious about lutherie and my day job.
Author:  CharlieT [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
jfmckenna wrote:
What I do is pre drill the holes in the neck block and counter sink them. I drill the holes slightly larger than the bolts to handle any play necessary to line things up. I then build my neck blank and rough cut the heal dimensions. Then set the neck angle using a straight edge to measure the bridge height at the saddle location accounting for fretboard thickness and fret wire height. I clamp the neck to the body with a long clamp from the tail block to the heal. Once that is set I drill the holes for the brass inserts and then epoxy them in. They are drilled about 1/8in deep, not flush, to facilitate a neck reset in the future. Then I glue on the fretboard and shape the neck.

Simple as that.


Thanks jf, that helps a lot. Seems pretty straight forward.
Author:  CharlieT [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
Everyone has a role in life. Mine is to be the comic relief when I am not being uber serious about lutherie and my day job.


I for one appreciate the comic relief, Tony.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Tony - how do you calculate how much comic relief is necessary? Do you just keep on turning on the truss rod until something pops? laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
I do squats. They keep my butt tight. It's bathing suit season after all.


I knew it was coming Tony duh



Everyone has a role in life. Mine is to be the comic relief when I am not being uber serious about lutherie and my day job.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
I built a simple jig that registers from the top. It is a block of Baltic birch 1" thick that hangs from the top with the location holes drilled through. Hang it from the guitar top for the body, hang from the fingerboard surface for the neck. Eezy peezy!
Author:  jac68984 [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Not yet mentioned is the smart idea of inserting a dowel into the heel block to protect against end grain insert tearout. Additionally, I rout down the inside of the area of the heal that will be butted against the guitar so that all that touches is a bit more than 1/8 of outside edges of the heel (sort of similar to angling the cuts of a dovetail neck to ensure a tight check fit). Much easier to get a nice neck/body fit that way. Kathy's tutorial covers both issues well.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
meddlingfool wrote:
I built a simple jig that registers from the top. It is a block of Baltic birch 1" thick that hangs from the top with the location holes drilled through. Hang it from the guitar top for the body, hang from the fingerboard surface for the neck. Eezy peezy!


A picture is worth a thousand words.

//

I've never done the dowel method though it's probably not a bad idea. I just embed my inserts in epoxy and so far so good. I also flood the end grain with thin CA mostly to finish off the end grain.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
Thanks everyone (including Tony for the comic relief - always needed) for the info. Between these posts and Kathy's blog I think I can get this done without any problems.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Talking about butt joints
I've yet to master the art of getting photos on this forum...;)
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