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| Let's talk blocks http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37055 |
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| Author: | Chris Ensor [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Let's talk blocks |
I have been thinking a lot about the tale/neck blocks lately. Why is it that the convention is to use blocks where the grain is in the same direction as the sides? Would that allow a split to travel easier? Also, if you do a patch for a soundport, a lot of people do cross grain patches. The side struts sometimes used on guitars are also cross grain. So why not have a block that is cross grain? |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I use baltic birch ply for the tail block. Neck blocks are mahogany in the usual manner. |
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| Author: | Marcus [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I believe the thinking is that you match the grain direction for the sides and blocks so that when the wood expands, it expands uniformly and is less likely to crack. I'm not sure how that theory affects the soundport reinforcement. Although, I think the official consensus is: Do whatever the hell you want. 
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| Author: | klooker [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Someone brought this up in a different thread but worded it differently, I think. The answer that made sense to me is that all gluing surfaces will be face grain - if you turned the blocks 90 degrees to the sides, the top & bottom will be end grain where the back & soundboard glue against. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Kevin is correct... you want long grain to long grain gluing surfaces between the heel block and the top, back, and sides.. If you feel the need for alternating grain, use plywood. Crack prevention is not a concern at the heel but can be at the tail if the guitar takes a blow to the end pin. |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
And, of course, there is no reason why you couldn't make up your own laminate 3-ply block, with the center grain vertical (and thus providing added strength) , and the two outer horizontal grain plies providing a satisfactory gluing interface for the top and back. |
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| Author: | jac68984 [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
It's also a whole lot easier to plane the block with the grain running horizontal. |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Here's how I do it. The grain runs parallel with the sides and I installed laminates on the front and back with opposing grain using scraps from the sides and top. The glue surface for the piece that glues to the sides is routed out free hand. It isn't very attractive but nobody will ever see it except maybe a repair guy 100 years from now. Attachment: IMG_3957 (Large).JPG Attachment: IMG_3958 (Large).JPG
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Plenty of folks using baltic birch for end blocks. No splitting when installing end pins (not that it happens much I suppose). Filippo Got one on the bench, a Gibson J45 with a split tail block - guitar took a hit on the end pin. Split the sides too. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
It doesn't matter, at all. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I don't know where to get baltic birch... the cost for that is often so high I need to sell my kidney to afford even a small piece. Plywood is good for end blocks, probably even preferable to avoid splits, but if you are making a dovetail neck guitar, then you do NOT want to use multi piece heel blocks, because the steam will most certainly break it apart. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Tai Fu wrote: I don't know where to get baltic birch... the cost for that is often so high I need to sell my kidney to afford even a small piece. Plywood is good for end blocks, probably even preferable to avoid splits, but if you are making a dovetail neck guitar, then you do NOT want to use multi piece heel blocks, because the steam will most certainly break it apart. Not if you use an appropriate glue (such as polyurethane) it won't. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Has anyone actually ever seen a guitar crack through the tail block? I've restored some pretty wrecked instruments before but never have come across that. On the first few builds I did somehow I had that idea in my head so I used quarter sawn blocks with the annular rings going across the sides at a right angle and the end grain at top and bottom. What a total PIA it was to true it up for gluing the top and back. I now use either a full sized block or a laminated block with the flat sawn part glued to the sides. I really doubt that if a crack forms along a side that it will continue on through the block because that grain is orientated the same and just so happens to be aligned perfectly along the advancing crack. |
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| Author: | John Coloccia [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
jfmckenna wrote: Has anyone actually ever seen a guitar crack through the tail block? I've restored some pretty wrecked instruments before but never have come across that. On the first few builds I did somehow I had that idea in my head so I used quarter sawn blocks with the annular rings going across the sides at a right angle and the end grain at top and bottom. What a total PIA it was to true it up for gluing the top and back. I now use either a full sized block or a laminated block with the flat sawn part glued to the sides. I really doubt that if a crack forms along a side that it will continue on through the block because that grain is orientated the same and just so happens to be aligned perfectly along the advancing crack. I have and it takes the sides with it. The sides don't split the block. The block splits the sides, often from being dropped on a tapered end pin. Makes me wonder, actually, why we still use tapered tail pins at all. I've since stopped using them in favor of a regular strap button. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
jfmckenna wrote: Has anyone actually ever seen a guitar crack through the tail block? I've restored some pretty wrecked instruments before but never have come across that. On the first few builds I did somehow I had that idea in my head so I used quarter sawn blocks with the annular rings going across the sides at a right angle and the end grain at top and bottom. What a total PIA it was to true it up for gluing the top and back. I now use either a full sized block or a laminated block with the flat sawn part glued to the sides. I really doubt that if a crack forms along a side that it will continue on through the block because that grain is orientated the same and just so happens to be aligned perfectly along the advancing crack. The guitar I am restoring now has a cracked end block that also split the side |
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| Author: | Chris Ensor [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I start a thread, leave for work, and BOOM, it blows up.... I think I like this place. It seems to me that the most logical thing to do would be to have opposing grain in the tail- be it either a solid block, or a laminate block. And have the neck block going with the gain of the sides. Maybe this is one of those things that we way over think, maybe not.... |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
jfmckenna wrote: Has anyone actually ever seen a guitar crack through the tail block? I've restored some pretty wrecked instruments before but never have come across that. On the first few builds I did somehow I had that idea in my head so I used quarter sawn blocks with the annular rings going across the sides at a right angle and the end grain at top and bottom. What a total PIA it was to true it up for gluing the top and back. I now use either a full sized block or a laminated block with the flat sawn part glued to the sides. I really doubt that if a crack forms along a side that it will continue on through the block because that grain is orientated the same and just so happens to be aligned perfectly along the advancing crack. See my post about 3 posts before yours. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Tai Fu wrote: jfmckenna wrote: Has anyone actually ever seen a guitar crack through the tail block? I've restored some pretty wrecked instruments before but never have come across that. On the first few builds I did somehow I had that idea in my head so I used quarter sawn blocks with the annular rings going across the sides at a right angle and the end grain at top and bottom. What a total PIA it was to true it up for gluing the top and back. I now use either a full sized block or a laminated block with the flat sawn part glued to the sides. I really doubt that if a crack forms along a side that it will continue on through the block because that grain is orientated the same and just so happens to be aligned perfectly along the advancing crack. The guitar I am restoring now has a cracked end block that also split the side Tai is there anything on that guitar that is NOT broken?  /// Ok maybe it's a bit more common then I think. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Having done it both ways, I can attest from the woodworking side of the story that it is really hard to shape the blocks with the end grain pointing out of the body. Never do that again. And from a gluing point of view, it is bad practice to glue to end grain. BTW, the only time I did it that way, it was not intentional. Just a newbie error. All these points were made.... just adding my +1s Mike |
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I have my guitars (bought and built) set up with end pins. Why? I guess just because that's how it's "done". I have my own method for using tapered end pins, I use a reamer to get a nice fit, until the collar is just tall of the guitar, make sure it looks great, then I throw the pin in the case and pull up a chair! 
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| Author: | Rob Flindall [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Huh. Well it looks like I may have screwed up the grain orientation on my first custom build. Silly me. I have the grain running vertical on both with end grain pointing to the top and back. For the tail block, I used a solid piece of mahogany. But I ran a 1" wide dado up the center of the back side that you glue up to the rim. In the dado I glued a strip of Baltic birch ply. It's nice and hidden and that tail block should never split. Mind you I don't think I'll test this theory anytime soon!  Rob |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
So what about a cutaway. Is it better to glue the top and back to end grain, or the trebble side? |
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| Author: | All Thumbs [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
I did use Baltic birch for end blocks, al la lerivee. I now use a two piece mahogany block. Grain next to the sides running parallel, the pi ece toward the neck running 90 degrees to it |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Been using laminated neck and heel blocks for 20 years. Spruce and mahogany = 1/2 the weight of a solid hog block, no splits to worry about either.  
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| Author: | J.L.K. Vesa [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let't talk blocks |
Tim McKnight wrote: Been using laminated neck and heel blocks for 20 years. Spruce and mahogany = 1/2 the weight of a solid hog block, no splits to worry about either. Where do you buy your weightless spruce, Tim?
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