Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37004		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Phil Marcus [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
1st of all, I'd like to thank everybody who offered me the encouragement on my 1st thread. After the requisite plethora of family emergencies, I'm good to go. I've got wood, likely the only that I will see during middle age, and I have a big honking piece of African mahogany just waiting to be sliced and diced into neck-size pieces.

Frankly, there have been so many detours that I just want to start on this thing. I have more than enough tools and materials. It seems there are as many ways to build a guitar as there are people who built them. Cumpiano is what I started with, and I like his style, but it seems there are very few people who do free-form builds. Read: Dance with the one what brung ya!

I'm up to date on his changes and edits to his method. But it still bugs me that his is a methodology that builds freeform when everyone else seems to be using a mold. I'm also a little nervous about my ability to form wet wood into a precise curve once, let alone twice-and backwards.

I'm going to start building the neck 1st-any comments?
Author:  Bbk [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
doctorrockit wrote:
1st of all, I'd like to thank everybody who offered me the encouragement on my 1st thread. After the requisite plethora of family emergencies, I'm good to go. I've got wood, likely the only that I will see during middle age, and I have a big honking piece of African mahogany just waiting to be sliced and diced into neck-size pieces.

Frankly, there have been so many detours that I just want to start on this thing. I have more than enough tools and materials. It seems there are as many ways to build a guitar as there are people who built them. Cumpiano is what I started with, and I like his style, but it seems there are very few people who do free-form builds. Read: Dance with the one what brung ya!

I'm up to date on his changes and edits to his method. But it still bugs me that his is a methodology that builds freeform when everyone else seems to be using a mold. I'm also a little nervous about my ability to form wet wood into a precise curve once, let alone twice-and backwards.

I'm going to start building the neck 1st-any comments?


I am just about to put the finish on my first build. I used cumpiano. I am going to try a mold on my second but if I had a time machine I would still use cumpiano on my first. So I say go for it.
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
Look up Bruce Sexauer on the UMGF. He does free form building.
Tom
Author:  John Coloccia [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I'm studying with Cumpiano and we actually chit chatted about this the last time I was in the shop. He mentioned that his main reason for getting away from a mold is that he builds many different types of instruments and molds are a pain in the butt to build and store, and then you need spreaders too. Now that I've built both ways, I can tell you that the mold is completely unnecessary IF your sides are bent well, and they should be bent well regardless. Having gone through the process, I now prefer free-form building and doubt I will ever go back to a mold unless I start mass production. I've come around to his way of thinking and the fact is that building free form is just not the bogeyman it's made out to me.

I would try it his way on your first build. His sequence is very simple, very well thought out and has been successful for many many many people building from his book, as well as people that have built guitars with him and his own guitars, of course. A LOT of guitars have been made with his method. :) So relax, don't worry about molds or what anyone else is doing, and build your guitar. It will come out just fine.

You'll eventually end up modifying the method to go in whatever direction you want....different sequence, add a mold, radius dishes, etc. For example, I found that I prefer to join the sides to the neck and tail blocks, and then glue the whole thing to the top as a unit, instead of gluing the blocks to the top, and then the sides to the blocks.
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I free build, very much as Cumpiano & Natelson suggest. No molds, bend with a hot pipe, etc. Though a lot of the methods I use to produce different components are mine based on my career as a cabinetmaker. I like the free form method. I think it puts me more in touch with the instrument. For the most part everybody does do this slightly differently and there is nothing wrong with that. Give it a try following the book, see how it goes. If you run into problems there are plenty of folks here to help you out. Be patient and remember there is a learning curve, and you will improve with practice.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I use Cumpiano's free form method with no mold as well.

Without going into a pros and cons session which will simply provoke argument, since you started the discussion with Cumpiano's method, I will say that there is nothing wrong with using the method, it is sound and well thought out. You will end up with a neck angle of 90 degrees, yet orthogonal to the top radius, therefore your shoulders will slope backwards providing the correct 1.5 degree neck angle. Your neck will run true from the nut to the last fret with no fall off, and a substantially easier neck to fit, since there will be no measuring, transferring, cutting, and fitting of the neck angle joint. All good reasons to use the method. Build method is really just personal preference in my opinion.

Since you are starting with the neck, just in case you haven't found this particular bit of info, here are details on Cumpiano's (and others) updated non-pinned neck joint:

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/S ... block.html
Author:  mqbernardo [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
i have only one (almost) completed guitar (no varnish and bridge yet)and no previous woodworking experience and built it without moulds (is that how you say it in the US?) and bent the sides on a hot pipe, worked really smooth. no reason not to try it.
being my 1st guitar i did not want to compromise with a body shape, and so skipped the mould altogether: solera (roy courtnall style) and spool clamps, and it´s good to go. of course, YMMV.

good luck, doctor!

cheers,
miguel.
Author:  Phil Marcus [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
Thanks for the help, everyone. I'm cutting my neck blank from a large khaya board. I have very little experience with mahogany and even less with khaya. I am following Cumpiano, so I decided to do the neck 1st. I have another blank that's only 2-1/8 inches wide-I know his neck blanks measure 3 inches wide but I wonder if my narrower blank is wide enough to do a neck if you do a graft on the sides of the headpiece? It amazes me how much specialized knowledge is necessary to accomplish these tasks.

Thanks Everyone,

Phil
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
doctorrockit wrote:
I have another blank that's only 2-1/8 inches wide-I know his neck blanks measure 3 inches wide but I wonder if my narrower blank is wide enough to do a neck if you do a graft on the sides of the headpiece?

Depends on your string spacing at the bridge. I usually do neck width at 12th fret equal to string spacing at the bridge, so if you ever plan on doing a 12 fret neck with 2 1/8" bridge spacing, that'll be perfect. But equal at the 14th fret is ok too, especially if your scale length is on the long side, or if you use medium gauge strings, so they're pretty tight and don't fall off the edge too easily.

I'm another freeform builder, largely based on Cumpiano's book. I don't even use a workboard at all. I close the box with spool clamps rather than his rope method, and do it with the neck attached so I can crank the neck forward or back until the projection at the bridge location is correct. Although ideally it won't need cranked at all, since it's generally better not to build tension into the box, and the upper bout area is quite stiff even without the back on, so the projection can't be changed very much anyway.
Author:  Phil Marcus [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I think I'm going to do it by the book and either laminate this billet with a maple stripe or just cut a new piece that matches his specs. By the way, are skew chisels a necessity or is a skew knife or just a nice sharp whittlin' knife good for neck carving? I know there must be a million ways to do this...
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I build with a mould.
Helps keep everything straight, and in line.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
No need for skew chisels. The 3/4" Hock violin knife that LMI sells is great for most carving, including the heel. The Kunz light spokeshave here is a good deal and works well for the neck shaft http://www.diefenbacher.com/Spokeshaves.htm
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I read a post on one of the forums from a buyer that was very upset because the distance from the bridge wings to the edge of the guitar was unequal by 1/8". Better use a mold for a customer like that!
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I read a post on one of the forums from a buyer that was very upset because the distance from the bridge wings to the edge of the guitar was unequal by 1/8". Better use a mold for a customer like that!


Better yet, position your neck correctly so that it and the bridge are centered. Or cut your top correctly. Or make your bridge symmetrical. Or any other of a dozen things non-mold related that it could be.......
Author:  Phil Marcus [ Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I like to thank everyone again for their answers and their help. Hopefully, someday I'll be able to do the same for someone else.

While searching the forum I found some threads discussing the value of plans. Cumpiano doesn't have you produce a measured plan per se; it is worthwhile to try, say, one of the ones that originated here at OLF? I noticed that the OM plan from Stewart McDonald is pretty nice.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
Plans are good. What happens sometimes is that someone gets a brace a milimeter off what the plan says and they freak out wondering if they killed their tone. Don't worry about that.

The benefit of learning to build without a plan is that you learn how to fit the parts together and lay everything out correctly and accurately (mold or no). How to measure and position the soundhole, various braces, etc. With plan, it's easy to simply go with what the plan has drawn, and then check later. Well, a LOT of plans are notoriously not to scale or a little off, or distorted, or some such. Then you find out your soundhole is a sixteenth to low, and your fretboard doesn't cover up the rosette in the right spot, but those are things you learn along the way anyway.

If you use a plan, double check your layouts carefully.

Cumpiano's method shows you how to lay everything out accurately and double check as you go.
Author:  Leanu [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I love these kinds of threads. As a newcomer to the craft, hearing all these differing opinions gives me confidence in being able to figure things out as I build!
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
I think building with a mold is a good way to start out. There are a lot of things one learns along the way. And the mold can help teach them while minimizing the possibilities of error. Sort of like training wheels. That said, mold building can be a way to always build. If you want to produce exact copies, hard to beat. The downside? Heavy, cumbersome, hard to store, and so on. They do make nice stiffeners for when I am bowl shaping the top and back. I think a really good poll question would be "how many started building with molds?" and "How many started building free-form?", then, after you matured in the skill, ask the same questions, replacing "started" with "switched to" and "stayed with".
Author:  Phil Marcus [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hi, I'm Phil and these are my 11 thumbs.
Guitarwhisperer: After I thought about the process in the book - constructing the parts of a plan from his specs - it seems that plans would be mucho entertaining, but not in a good way at this juncture. Cumpiano's method sounds like it work best if used in total, at least for a beginner. I'm in for following the directions, at least in spirit. That said, I'm avoiding skew chisels.

Mike: molds sound and look really good, but want to see if I can build this one free form. Please furnish me with your phone # so I can call you very late/early screaming in disbelief at the mess I will have made...

It's in the mid-nineties and raining, a lovely combination, although better than last-year's wildfires that left more than a few smoking ruins. As you might have surmised, cutting mahogany in 100% humidity can, and should, wait. When it dries out a little, I'll mosey out to the north 400 (square feet, that is) and cut me a mighty fine new neck blank. Whoo-Ha!
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/