| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Secret to seamless butt joints on binding http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=36990 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Corky Long [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
One of the steps in this process that still has me a bit mystified is how to line up the butt joints of the binding so that it's reeeallly clean work. There's one joint in particular that is the issue. I have no problem with the binding on the top of the guitar, because I start the process with a perfectly perpendicular joint at the tail. With a sharp pull saw and lining up the two ends to cut it flush, I can usually glue them in the channel with a very good, almost invisible joint. And the end of those bindings is obscured by the fretboard at the other side, so no issue there. It's on the back of the guitar, where the binding meets the heel of the neck that I have trouble. How do you get the binding to be 1) exactly the right length, (a gap is fatal, and 5 thou too long is also fatal, because it will cause the binding to show a gap from where it meets the back if it's only a little long), and 2) cut so that the mating ends of the binding fit each other exactly.? Ive tried dry fitting the binding, but wood bindings seem to always need some elbow grease and strong tape to get them to fit perfectly and I'm not sure how to cut that last joint on the butt side of the neck so that it's aolost invisible. Any silver bullets here? Thanks! |
|
| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I'd like to know too!! Last one I did needed fixing because of a fair gap (about 3/64") at the heel area (worse because of breaking the binding while gluing) with silkwood bindings. I ended up scarfing in another piece of binding - planing the joint area flat (diagonally to the binding section) to just touch the purfling then gluing in a length of the silkwood. When dry, planed/scraped/sanded to blend in and it's turned out pretty good - I'll see how it looks under finish later. Hope you can follow that, sorry no pics, I'm working away. |
|
| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
This is how I do it. Start at the butt end and tape one side of the binding finishing at the heel centre joint. Then I start to tape the other side, obviously make sure the butt joint is a good one. As I come around the upper bout I trim the excess length but leaving it a touch long. It's then a case of paring the end grain with a very sharp chisel fractions at a time, testing frequently. I do this with the binding over the Back but it's obviously protected by a thin piece of waste wood. Try taking very fine slithers off a similar binding size test piece. Wetting the end grain will make things a touch easier. Eventually you should get a feel for how much or little to take off. I find this to be the most accurate way. Files and sandpaper usually makes things worse for me. |
|
| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
It's much easier if you use the method of taping everything in place before wicking CA. If using other glue, it's much harder to pre-cut everything exactly. I tape the binding in place and trim it to be a very tight fit, erring on the long side. It's tempting to get lazy here and only use a few pieces of tape but you really need to make sure everything is tight. I then remove the tape, apply glue about 3/4 of the way around, tape it to that point and do the final fitting, if needed, with a sharp chisel for the purfling and a small sanding block for the binding. You have to work quick and it still gives me fits every once in a while but it usually works pretty well. |
|
| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
The first answer is "practice". Sorry to be a smart aleck, but it's true, it does get easier. Fortunately you only need to do it once each guitar. Here's what I do. Because I'm right handed, I like the last piece of binding to go in to be on the bass side. This is assuming you've started at the butt and this last joint is going to be by the heelcap. The start of the joints at the butt of the guitar should be ok because you can keep trimming til you get a nice joint. I like my disc sander for that. For the last joint, I stop running the glue the last few inches before the joint. Tape in the bindings as usual, then trim it to be say 1mm too long with a nice sharp razor saw. Then I use a sanding stick, 6" x 1" x 1" with 100 grit to very carefully sand it to fit, just a whisper at a time. When you have the joint seamles, run your glue in and tape. Don't glue the actual butt of the joint ends on light colored woods like maple as the glue line will be darker than a tight but empty joint. Trevor Gore shows a neat jig made of a small piece of angle iron which he uses as a chisel guide to do the same thing. Rambling, sorry. Hope that helps... |
|
| Author: | David Newton [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I don't "butt" it, but use a 30 degree scarf joint, it is all but undetectable on dark wood, and even in Maple. Like anything else, practice makes "almost perfect" and scarfing the joint opens up options like joining the binding almost anywhere on the perimeter. |
|
| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Scarf joint instead of butt joint. Don't make it at the center line either, make it offset down the side one way or the other by 1-2". |
|
| Author: | Corky Long [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Thanks, all!! As usual, a great set of suggestions. Will give it a shot next time. |
|
| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
meddlingfool wrote: Because I'm right handed, I like the last piece of binding to go in to be on the bass side. Genius! Why didn't I think of that?! |
|
| Author: | grumpy [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I find scarf joints to show more than butt joints; a scarfed joint is a longer one. Also, unless you're using very dark bindings, offsetting from the center line will be obvious and look like a mistake. Otherwise, lots of good information was presented. I'll add, with light colored bindings(plastic or wood) you must work with absolutely clean hands and a clean work surface, including the guitar itself. Any dust or dirt will make the joint stand out. Also, don't cheat with that joint on the top, under the fretboard. Go ahead and treat that one just like the back, and you get double the experience, and if you bind the top first, you get one "free" try at it before doing the back's. Absolutely sharper than razor sharp chisels, and a small hardwood "backer" to chisel against; a off-cut from a maple bridgeplate works fine. Resist the temptation to cut against the guitar body itself; you may think that since the area behind the heel will be hidden that it's okay to chisel the binding to length there, but fact is, light-colored bindings are usually used against dark-colored sides, and then you introduce dark dust/dirt into your freshly cut joint... I just glue it all up, and on the second piece, when I come around the upper bout's corner, I stop applying glue and dry-fit the binding, taping it tightly, and with the chisel, carefully sneak-up on the joint. No need to tape up a full set of bindings to work the joint, just stop about 8" short, and do it from there. |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
If I'm using waterbase glue I fit one side of the guitar with bindings & purfs. Leaving their ends clean & square. I glue them on;Tape them or/and use large rubber bands or clamps if needed. Then wait 45 minutes & fit the other side. This allows me to fit the joints with ONE of them in place. Then glue on the other side. Mike |
|
| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I find the a clean scarf joint is a good way to make the joint homogenous. Started doing them years ago and won't do a butt joint anymore. One thing I can't stress enough is to keep thing CLEAN . Any dirt at all will show the joint. Also TIGHT mating surface. More joint show just because the joint is not mated well. Glue also will make a joint show. I don't use CA , I use fish for wood and duco for plastic. |
|
| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
meddlingfool wrote: Trevor Gore shows a neat jig made of a small piece of angle iron which he uses as a chisel guide to do the same thing. It's brass (in the vain hope it may do less damage to the chisel if you get it wrong). Seems to work. CA leaves a much more visible glueline than say Titebond, because CA wicks into the end grain. Titebond shows more on scarfs unless the joint is very tight. I keep thinking I ought to make a custom guillotine type arrangement to shave microns off the end of bindings, but I guess I got enough practice not to need it. Would certainly make it easier, though. Bottom line: a very sharp chisel and do what Grumpy does. |
|
| Author: | Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
This is simple. One piece bindings. No joints at the tail. That's a joke sort of. |
|
| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I made a little mini miter box for butt joints, I've shown it here before. Just custom make for the width of binding you are using and use a razor saw. It's been a big help for me. Sneak up on the joint. I cut the purfling with a sharp chisel using a protective piece of plastic on the back of the guitar. Sneak up on that too. Final fit with a small sanding stick. 
|
|
| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I use a scarf joint. It's a better joint. I also use CA and get a nice taped tight fit before I wick it in. On light woods I use LMI white in the scarf only before I tape it down an use the CA. |
|
| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
My issue for scarfed joints in new bindings is that we still have a beginning and an end, and with most woods, it's impossible to make it invisible. especially so with figured woods. Most of the scarfed joints I've seen, the clearly-visible binding ends we never right on the centerline, and that just looks wrong. I also do a scarfed joint in ivoroid, black plastic, and TS plastic bindings, and also off-center, by a lot. The ivoroid and TS celluloids are never long enough to go all the way around, so with these, I'll usually start at the neck/heel, and go a little past or fore of the waist, always on the treble-side. Very hard to detect, if at all. Plastics melt into one another for seamless "welds", but I was assuming the OP here was asking about wood bindings.... |
|
| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Tony_in_NYC wrote: This is simple. One piece bindings. No joints at the tail. That's a joke sort of. I built one guitar like that once, the sides were all one piece too and there was this really cool figured curl right where the end graft would be. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") FWIW I always use a scarf joint too, I think it hides the lines better. In either case these joints are a PIA and what's worse is you spend all this time on something that has nothing to do with the tone or playability of the guitar 
|
|
| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
I've never liked light binding or done it because of the visibility of the joints and end graft junction even in the best guitars. That said, the best match I ever saw was a scarf joint on Maple by Charlie Hoffman. Really looked nice. |
|
| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Hi all, Just a side note on this subject. Of course, we are all into building to the maximum of what we are able to do, "crafters of fine musical instruments", and so, and so. But in 69 guitars I've made so far, and the several shows I've exibited, only one customer actually took the time to look at that binding joint. And of course, the guy was a amateur luthier who was wondering how I handled mine! Just sayin'... |
|
| Author: | murrmac [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Todd Stock wrote: I routinely do scarfs for repairs and they can be nearly invisible with good stock selection, but use butt joints for new binding...invisible in ebony and expected in everything else. Used to think offset joints looked odd, but after seeing them frequently in ivoroid on Bourgeois and Santa Cruz guitars, I'm convinced of it...or at least the butted joints I see on those guitars from time to time. If perfectly made, you'll be hard pressed to find a scarfed joint, but if it's tough for you to get a good fit on a butt joint, it will be close to impossible on a scarf. Like everyone else here, I dry fit the tail; like Doc Kennedy and Mario, I trim to a good fit at the neck with razor saw and more than razor-sharp paring chisel. Attachment: Repair-Plan-2.jpg Attachment: Binding-Repair.jpg I got to say, the one deal breaker for me on any guitar is a herringbone purfling which continues in the same orientation all the way round the top. It just freaks me out. Martin , to their credit, don't do this, they bisect the herringbone right in the center of the tail block, and make it all symmetrical. |
|
| Author: | Nils [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Well - it seems as if nobody uses my technique. I start at the waist and work out. However, each strip kinda gets three glue ups. The first glue up goes to somewhere just beyond the center of the upper and lower bouts. Once I get all the strips partially in, I then carefully fit the joints and glue them in the rest of the way. |
|
| Author: | Ed Haney [ Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Secret to seamless butt joints on binding |
Great info. Thanks for the posts guys. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|