What about 10 min? That's all I found around and I need to glue lignum vitae scales to a fancy hunting knife I'm making for a friend
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| Bonding wood to metal http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=36522 |
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| Author: | jsmith [ Fri May 18, 2012 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bonding wood to metal |
Besides 3M Scotch Weld, what have you all found that works well for bonding wood to metal--preferably an adhesive that's sold in a small amount. I need to glue several strips of .020 X 3/8" X 4" steel to wood. Thanks in advance. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Fri May 18, 2012 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Most epoxies would work, I'd avoid the 5 min type though.Give your metal a scuffing with sand paper or scotch brite and give it a good cleaning and you should be fine. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Fri May 18, 2012 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I'm thinking about making a guitar with aluminum binding for my friend Shaun Hopper. He does this percussion thing that's wearing a hole in the side of his guitar. |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Fri May 18, 2012 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
With aluminum if you don't bond right after sanding you'll end up bonding to an oxide layer at about 1/3rd the strength than if you treat it right. PM me and I'll go over it all with you. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sat May 19, 2012 12:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Zlurgh wrote: With aluminum if you don't bond right after sanding you'll end up bonding to an oxide layer at about 1/3rd the strength than if you treat it right. PM me and I'll go over it all with you. Words of wisdom there. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat May 19, 2012 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
What about 10 min? That's all I found around and I need to glue lignum vitae scales to a fancy hunting knife I'm making for a friend
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat May 19, 2012 5:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I found the only way to reliably bond metal to wood is either epoxy or mechanical fasteners. Problem with aluminum is the oxide layer forms within seconds of being sanded or scratched, so its impossible to have aluminum completely free of oxide layers in normal atmosphere. That's why welding or soldering aluminum is so difficult. Steel isn't so bad, epoxy will bond but if you're using something like system three make sure you thicken the epoxy first or else the wood will suck away all the epoxy and make the bond weak. In this case it is better to use epoxy adhesives rather than ones for fiberglass. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Sat May 19, 2012 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Marine Tex |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat May 19, 2012 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I would rethink metal as a binding. Binding is there as a protective against bumps and dings. Metal like aluminum is very soft and will not protect the guitar. You also have a shrinkage and contraction issue and a safety concern . |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sat May 19, 2012 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I used slow set epoxy on a slab git with copper bindings, and it's held up for about 17 years. |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Sun May 20, 2012 3:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Alexandru Marian wrote: What about 10 min? That's all I found around and I need to glue lignum vitae scales to a fancy hunting knife I'm making for a friend I wouldn't count on any glue for the application you describe. Lignum Vitae is famously hard to glue. Any wood-steel glue joint will have to deal with severe shear stresses. (You'll note that most knife scales are mechanically joined.) If you are determined to try glue, you'll want a high strength, industrial epoxy, not any of the hardware store options. De-wax the wood with multiple acetone baths, and sand-blast the steel. When the bond fails, go back to a riveted joint. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sun May 20, 2012 3:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Eric Reid wrote: Alexandru Marian wrote: What about 10 min? That's all I found around and I need to glue lignum vitae scales to a fancy hunting knife I'm making for a friend I wouldn't count on any glue for the application you describe. Lignum Vitae is famously hard to glue. Any wood-steel glue joint will have to deal with severe shear stresses. (You'll note that most knife scales are mechanically joined.) If you are determined to try glue, you'll want a high strength, industrial epoxy, not any of the hardware store options. De-wax the wood with multiple acetone baths, and sand-blast the steel. When the bond fails, go back to a riveted joint. When I made handles for violin knives, I glue them together with the knife inside so that the wood itself wedges the knife in itself. So its the wood to wood bond holding it together rather than wood to metal. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun May 20, 2012 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I would have used a mechanical male/female assembly but after not finding the suited size and reading around it seems that many custom knifes these days are made with epoxy rather than the old fashioned way. The pins are simply press-fitted into the holes and epoxied too, not riveted. Lignum vitae is indeed special. Planing it makes the sole feels like it has been generously waxed. The wood in itself feels waxed. Even so, I did some tests with fish glue (no acetone/alcohol) and it holds reasonably well. I still got some wood failure when trying lignum with mahogany and spruce. In any case I will do a test with steel and acetone cleaned lignum scraps before. |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Sun May 20, 2012 4:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
You might want to read up on the history of epoxy bonding in the aircraft industry circa 1960-1980 (When Boeing nearly went bankrupt because of glue failures). Telephones have come a long way--guitars, knives, epoxy, not so much. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sun May 20, 2012 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
For the wood, do the standard procedure: clean, fresh surface. Doesn't matter much if you sand it or plane it that way, but if you sand it then you need to blow compressed air on it until every last little speck of sanding dust is actually gone. For the metal the process is a bit more complicated. Clean it with acetone three times, etch it, flame or corona treat it, wipe once more with acetone and then glue as quickly as you can. Use a new, clean rag for each acetone cleaning. Kimwipes or at least a brand new roll of 'shop towels' blue paper towel are recommended. As others have, I'd recommend epoxy as the easiest to pull this off with although CA will work in ideal conditions. I have less experience with steel, but the standards for etching it are strong acids, sulfuric or nitric, or things that make strong acids in water (Ferric Chloride, used in PCB etching). Etch aluminum with a strong base (counter-intuitive, at least to me) as this removes the oxide layer and cooks into the surface pretty well. The more steps you skip in there, the weaker the bond will be. You can get a nice strong bond to metal, but the prep is killer. Check this out: |
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| Author: | Joe Hill [ Tue May 22, 2012 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I was going to use a 3/16" x 0.5mm copper filament for the binding. I have decided it would be best to use it as an outside layer on a multi layered binding. My thinking was along the same lines as Bob Garrish; clean it well then an acid bath of sulfuric acid, clean again then use epoxy for the adhesive. This thread gave me a little more confidence that I was on the correct train of thought. I think the copper would look good on the Black Walnut. Thanks, |
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| Author: | Chas Freeborn [ Tue May 22, 2012 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Carriage bolts work well. |
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| Author: | nickton [ Tue May 22, 2012 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
I would think something along the lines of how fret wire anchors would help--with barbed tangs of some sort--but that's not easy maybe. Or could it be done? Just a thought. |
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| Author: | Darrel Friesen [ Wed May 23, 2012 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bonding wood to metal |
Polyurethane or weldbond works well. |
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