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Help, I can't French Polish!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35976		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  WendyW [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Help, I can't French Polish!
Well, after I completed French Polishing the last guitar (classical) I had to get a cortisone shot in my thumb. It was difficult to bend and if it did bend it would lock, and was very painful. The shot worked and all has been well. Then last weekend I started to use a muneca to pore fill and right away I started having problems with my thumb. I managed to finish pore filling with shellac and sawdust, but I'm not willing to risk it and it seems to have something to do with grasping a muneca. So now I have to decide on a different finish for classicals. I don't have spray equipment or space to spray, although I guess I could outside. Not enamored of oil, other than for the neck. So what would be your next choice to finish a classical, can I use it over a shellac and sawdust pore fill / seal and can you point me to any tutorials? Thanks, Wendy
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Brush the Shellac on. Takes a bit of practice but much less time consuming than French Polishing.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Tru-Oil is my current working finish, besides FP. Goes on easy. Lots of rubbing back, etc, but lots less application time.
Author:  WendyW [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I don't care about application time and I'm not looking for any shortcuts. I just can't hold my thumb in the necessary position to grasp a muneca. Waddy...do you get a nice gloss finish with the Tru-Oil?
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I've run into an interesting "dilemma" with my coral snake guitar... at the moment, it only has a wash coat of shellac on it to keep it clean until final polishing. But the more I play it, the more I love the feel of the neck this way, open pored and slightly textured. And the top looks gorgeous with its scraped surface and wash coat of shellac. Reminds me of some violins I've seen with non-shiny varnish, which I like very much. The back and sides (Honduran rosewood) don't look as nice this way, so I think I'll at least pumice fill them, and possibly build some gloss as well depending on how it looks at that point. The only problem is, I don't know what prospective customers would think. Classy, or just lazy? And certainly it offers zero protection against dings, but then again a full French polish isn't that much better, and rosewood back/sides don't need protection anyway.

But aside from that or "proper" French polish, my next choice would be to learn how to do that "non-shiny violin varnish" and brush that on, although you'd still need to find some compatible pore filler for the back/sides, since violins never have to deal with pores. But I think most violin varnishes are meant to affect the sound to some extent, so it may need to be done somewhat differently for a guitar where you want minimal interference... at least on the top. Or you could do the shellac wash coat top with it since it looks similar anyway.

But if you want gloss, you can do that with brushed oil varnish as well. Bruce Sexauer, Laurent Brondel, and Woody Brackett provide some fine examples of that style. And Woody has some tutorials in the tutorial section of this forum.
Author:  John Coloccia [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
There's a couple of things you can do. Simplest would be to just use your other hand. Another solution would be to use a non traditional fad. Michael Thames uses cheese cloth wrapped around an eraser. That's a much different grasping position than a traditional fad.

Fast forward to 3:00 if you with to see his fad.


Incidentally, I've found that erasers also make world class sanding blocks, especially for leveling finish. Discovered that one day more or less by accident (I was too lazy to make a real sanding block). Surprise surprise....works great! I prefer these:

http://www.staedtler.com/Mars_plastic_gb

Seems to be the perfect size and consistency.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Help, I can't French Polish!
callyrox wrote:
I don't care about application time and I'm not looking for any shortcuts. I just can't hold my thumb in the necessary position to grasp a muneca. Waddy...do you get a nice gloss finish with the Tru-Oil?


Yes, a gloss finish is possible. I'll post some pictures of my #10 later. It may not quite be the glassy gloss of lacquer, but it's pretty good.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I brushed on waterbased laquer on my #1 classical (EIR and Redwood), because I had no access to spray equipment and because I didn't want to french polish this one, because I had to cover a lot of ''learning scars'' on it, especially on the soft redwood top, and because I knew this guitar will probably have some hard times in the future.

So I went with Em6000, brushed on. Here's the result.

http://www.guitaresfm.com/attachments/Image/gloss2.gif

It's been buffed on a buffing wheel, but I did some repair work on the finish, almost half the top. I then rebuff it by hand, with micro mesh, and I achieved an high gloss almost as nice as the original one.
Author:  Rob Warren [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Wendy, I'm getting pretty good results brushing Target's EM6000 water-based laquer. I add 15% retarder by weight, then brush it on. I've used it over zpoxy, LMI's micro bead filler, egg whites and shellac and used Trans tint to shade it or Mixol pigments for solid colors. I did use Stew Macs stains for a recent job and found the color bled into the clear coats. Had a heck of a time keeping the color off the white binding I used. Not sure what happened there but the end result came out good, just took a lot of scraping to keep the bindings white. Brushes pretty well but does require some extra work leveling due to Brush strokes not completely flowing out but works well for my purposes. Like the full burn in properties of it so no witness lines on repairs. Good luck with what ever you decide to try.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Brush grade Lacquer is available

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=48

I have used this off and on over the years on small projects that I did not feel like spraying with great results. I think it would work well on a guitar if you don't want to spray. French Polish is work and a lot of it, most likely why I like it.... I tend to pick the more difficult path.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Help, I can't French Polish!
Deft brushing lacquer is good. Used it on 5 guitars already but it takes a lot of sanding to level after application.
I am using rattle can lacquer on one now and it goes on much smoother and requires much less work to level. A coat takes a few minutes versus brushing which can take 20 minutes for a coat. Plenty of options.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I have used Deft on some furniture, but I've had problems with it from time to time. My problem with deft is the thickness of the finish.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Help, I can't French Polish!
You mean the viscosity or once applied and dry? I thin it before application and it seems to work well and give a thin finish.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I can't either.
Gonna try spraying shellac next time.
Link Van Cleave says it sprays nice.
Then ya gotta sand and polish...
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Geeze, just change the way you hold the fad, maybe make a larger or smaller one, but for sure, there's a million ways to hold it. You can even pinch it between your fingers and palm and not even use your thumb. There's no right or wrong way to hold it....

Reminds me of the old comedy skit:

Patient: hey Doc, it hurts when I do this.....

Doctor: then don't do that!
Author:  WendyW [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Thanks for all the suggestions. I have tried different size fads and it didn't help much. I also tried changing hands and, aside from not being very ambidextrous, believe it or not I started to have the same problem in the other thumb. I think my thumbs are just shot, 7 hours a day mousing and typing on a computer for work have contributed I am sure. I'd rather save them for playing and building. I will try the eraser trick though and thanks for the video John. I have been using erasers for sanding blocks too, they work great. I am considering the EM6000, but I had lousy results with brushing an early water based lacquer on my first, so I'm reluctant. I really would like to find something from Bruce, Laurent, or Woody on brushing oil varnish. I'll do a search. And, after seeing Waddy's #10 photos in another post I will take a serious look at Tru-Oil, which I was considering for the neck anyway. Thanks, Wendy
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Just a hypothesis.
if you are using denatured alcohol then switch to everclear.
You might be developing a sensitivity to some of the ingredients in the denatured alcohol.
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Are you holding the fad at the end of your fingers and thumb? If yes, then....

Try a much larger cover, and wad-up most of it such that it will make a large, comfortable "ball" in the palm of your hand. Then give the fad a good, tight "twist", and just pinch it lightly with your fingers(between the 1st and 2nd knuckles), and "roll" your thumb into the palm of your hand to keep it from trying to "help".

The above is how I've held my fads since I began to learn to FP some 19 years ago. I think I likely tried the classical hold, which is more or less with the tip of the thumb and fingers doing much of the work, and quickly changed to the above "grip".

There are many good/decent oil varnishes. There's a European varnish that I get from a boat supplier; I can write down the name when I go back to the shop if you wish. I've done a few mandolins with it and am very impressed.
As for oils, I tried Tru-Oil a long time ago, and gave up on that stuff quickly. But having applied a few gallons of Waterlox "original" on my home's red pine floors a couple years ago, I tried some of it on guitar necks, and love it! I apply it with a wadded-up paper towel in a "french polish" style, with very light, thin coats, and keep rubbing it when the "pad" is almost dry, applying pressure and working quickly to create some heat. I can have a durable neck finish in minutes. Literally! It will dry to a completely dull lustre at this point, and other than the wood having gained some color and depth, appears like there's no finish on it. Applying it wetter and heavier, and it will build decently quickly, and can come up to a very nice sheen. Never did an entire guitar body with it, but if so inclined, I wouldn't hesitate. Definitely superior to Tru-Oil....
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Michael.N. wrote:
Brush the Shellac on. Takes a bit of practice but much less time consuming than French Polishing.

Yup and some one posted a Youtube vid on this a while back. I couldn't believe it till i saw it how good the finish came out.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
It's just a spirit varnish. Not uncommon in the Violin or the Mandolin world. No real reason why it shouldn't turn out good. It's just a matter of brushing it on without large unsightly build ups, those are hard to recover from.
I can varnish a Back in around 6 minutes or less. 15 coats sounds a lot but it's water thin and takes less than 30 seconds to apply each coat. Any longer than that and your brush is dragging the surface. You don't have to go all through the grits either. Quite often I stop at 1000G and use the French Polish glazing technique, that takes care of the tiny scratches. Otherwise, just go through all the polishing process.
Another aspect that I like about it is the lack of cleaning up required. No need to wash the brush out.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
grumpy wrote:

There are many good/decent oil varnishes. There's a European varnish that I get from a boat supplier; I can write down the name when I go back to the shop if you wish. I've done a few mandolins with it and am very impressed.


Epiphanes?

I've gone through gallons of this stuff on my canoes. Its the only varnish that I will use now, its that good. I've tried it on some guitars, too and will continue to refine my technique. Its a different game on guitars instead of boats. Not very, but different enough...mostly in how people look at the finish.
Author:  John A [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Michael -

Regarding the brushing shellac on -
How many coats do you put on before sanding ? What pound cut do you use for this ? 1 lb, 2 lb ? or more ?
I plan to do my next guitar like this - lay down a good shellac base coat and then sand lightly with high grits - then reapply and spirit off with an alcohol pad. Will that work ?
Author:  gozierdt [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
I've also used Epiphanes on a couple of classic mahogany boats. Brushes on easily, just
keep a wet edge going (much easier to do on a 20" guitar than a 20' boat), and "tip off"-
run the brush very lightly over the wet surface at about a 45 degree angle to level out
any unevenness. Let dry and sand with 320. Don't need as many coats as the build is
faster than lacquer. Buffs out very nicely.
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
Epiphanes?

Bingo! Which one are you using? I have tried pretty well all of their variations so far, and haven't found much difference from one to the other. Not inexpensive, but it's heavy enough that once thinned to flow nicely, a pint goes a long, long way...

On the brushed shellac front... I tried that a few times, also sprayed some, but it never gets as hard and durable as a french polished shellac finish. It's my belief, because of the above-mentioned experience, that the heat and pressure we create while french polishing has a definite effect on the final outcome. The brushed and sprayed surfaces looked as good or better when fresh and new, but with time(few years), degraded much more, and more quickly, than expected.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help, I can't French Polish!
John A wrote:
Michael -

Regarding the brushing shellac on -
How many coats do you put on before sanding ? What pound cut do you use for this ? 1 lb, 2 lb ? or more ?
I plan to do my next guitar like this - lay down a good shellac base coat and then sand lightly with high grits - then reapply and spirit off with an alcohol pad. Will that work ?



I probably go 4 or 5 coats before any sanding. Even that is done with no less than 600G. Little point removing what you have just put on - unless it is necessary. I sand again before laying on the last 2 coats. So the procedure might go: 3 lots of 4 coats, sanding between. 2 final coats then final sand/Polish. . . or glazing if you don't want to go through all the grits. Everything is left to harden for at least a full month. You need to let it harden longer than the French Polish method, simply because it tends to be a thicker finished film. If you sand back too early, the finish will shrink back and you will get a slight textured look.
I can't really tell you a specific 'cut' other than to say that it is applied very thin, watery thin. Probably slightly less than a 1lb cut. There are many other Spirit varnish recipes aside from straight Shellac. I always add a few drops of Spike Oil of Lavender which extends the brushing time a little. It also means it takes longer to dry and fully harden. I can't say that I've noticed any difference in hardness/durability between brushed on Spirit and a French Polished surface. Then again there are MANY variables. You can make Spirit Varnish hard and chippy, you can also make it soft and gummy. I'm playing a Guitar that I used Spirit on 3 years ago, it's standing up very well indeed. It's played virtually everyday. If anything my French Polished surfaces wear through much quicker.
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