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EM6000 Help
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35918		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  EM6000 Help
I am buffing out the coco monster currently (my most recent commission) and it is looking great. EXCEPT the more I buff, the more a couple of blue spots show up in two places. I though I had gotten rid of any bluing (the sealer went on a bit heavy) and now it is coming back to haunt me. Any suggestions on how to get rid of the blue blues (other than sand it all off)? Will the bluing get worse or better with time? Thanks.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
Don't know if it would increase blueing but the only thing I can think is too much heat during buffing............ leave it 24-48hrs & see if it goes away.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
This makes little sense to me. Either it went on too thick or not. Buffing improves the refractive properties of the surface. Coco is a dark wood... And dark woods tend to show the blue hue more. I just can't say I've seen anywhere that buffing increases the blue hue (by somehow changing the finish with heat)

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
The more I use EM6000, the more convinced I am that u must be absolutely satisfied with surface prep first. Thinking u can use it to fill small imperfections will lead to a vicious cycle of application, pore full, sanding, and reapplication. For water clear finishes, or nitro, this is not an issue if film thickness does not affect the hue. But with EM6000, it can. The thinner u keep EM6000, the better. Seems most of us agree it goes on at 0.0003" per application. Then comes the number of applications. I prefer 18-21. Which puts it at most at 0.007". Level sanding will seem to remove half of that without going through to wood.

Mike
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
The bluing on this guitar actually came from the em1000. I thought I had sanded it all off, but I guess not. I find 1000 a lot harder to get good and consistant results with than 6000....
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
Ok. I don't use that. I use z-poxy. I've never really stopped to think about it much, but in some woods the average pore depth is way more than the average film thickness. Perhaps not a good idea to fill them with acrylic?

Mike
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
I should specify. I used z-poxy as my pore fill, em1000 as my sealer and em6000 as my topcoats.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
I have come around to the thinking that epoxy is a good sealer. Z-poxy does add a certain color and depth. It can be difficult to sand everything perfectly so that I don't go through the epoxy layer. So, to deal with this, I apply a final wash coat of Z-poxy (thinned with DNA), and lightly sand after that. Works like a charm for sealing and pore filling.

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
Btw, I'm a little surprised that Todd has not chimed in here yet. I agree with him that done right, you won't need a wash coat. But if you do, it is an option.

Mike
Author:  John Killin [ Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
Mike O'Melia wrote:
So, to deal with this, I apply a final wash coat of Z-poxy (thinned with DNA), and lightly sand after that. Works like a charm for sealing and pore filling.


So you are spraying Em6000 right over the Zpoxy wash coat? I read somewhere (and it has been a while) that you needed a sealer between the Zpoxy and the Em6000. I think it was on the target coatings site and they recommended the Em1000 or shellac as the sealer. Then after the shellac issues, I sort of was thinking that Em1000 would be the next choice. If the Em6000 works directly over Zpoxy, that simplifies things.

Mike I know you have been doing a lot of testing with this product so I appreciate your feedback.
Author:  John Killin [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
I'm going to bump this one. I might actually start a new thread with questions specific about Zpoxy and Em6000. I'm a bit away from finishing so for now I'm just trying to settle on a system.
Author:  Ken C [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
I don't typically shoot em1000 as a base coat, but I do use it as a color carrier when shooting bursts. I then top coat with em6000. I have shot 14 guitars with em6000 or its predecessor and frankly haven't had an issue with the oft discussed blue cast. Do you have micro bubbles trapped in your finish?

I also shoot em6000 right over zpoxy. Have done this with the past five guitars. No issues. I put zpoxy on using a razor blade and work the resin into the pores at an angle to the grain. With a razor blade tilted at a pretty good angle, say 20 to 30 degrees relative to the wood surface, it will press the resin into the pores and remove excess from the surface. When done correctly, I really don't need to sand much between coats and lately haven't been sanding at all after the last application, except for some of the edges. Very easy to work with when done this way and has turned pore filling from a pita to just another step of finishing. Depending on the wood, I will apply 2 or 3 coats. I let the zpoxy cure at least 24 hours, then swab lightly with DNA prior to spraying the first coat of Em6000. The top coats adhere just fine and build up and buff with no issue. In fact, I will be buffing two guitars this weekend ;)

Ken
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
It has been a little over a week now since I encountered this problem. The bluing become much less noticeable within hours of cooling after the buffing process. It is almost complete unnoticeable now. Something about the heat caused it to become very visible for a little while there.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EM6000 Help
It always has a blue cast when you put it on, especially if you put it on too thick. It's better to go light on the applications. If I see a blue film, I stop right there. This stuff dries very fast. You should be ready to reapply in under 1/2 hour. If not, you are putting too much on per application.

And yes, it goes on over Z-Poxy just fine.

Mike
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