hug a tree, shave a whale , eata guinea pig??,
ca fruits/nuts / flakes wood of the month club guitars, sounds like a great marketing plan to me.
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| Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35787 |
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| Author: | segovia [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Very interesting documentary if you have a hour to spare, well worth watching http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01dlcgk/Natural_World_20112012_Madagascar_Lemurs_and_Spies/ Pure white lemurs called silky sifaka live in the remote rainforests of Madagascar. They are one of the rarest animals in the world. Now a passionate scientist joins forces with an undercover detective to investigate whether there is a link between these endangered lemurs, illegal logging and expensive guitars in the USA. |
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| Author: | TRein [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
John, I clicked on the link but when opened, it stated that the video was only for viewing in the UK. Maybe you could give us a synopsis? |
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| Author: | segovia [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
I did wonder if BBC -i-player was restricted to the UK , pity. The documentary highlighted the plight of endangered species that are threatened with extinction due to the indiscriminate felling of Madagascar rosewood and ebony after the Government fell apart a few years ago. It was exported to China and the US and found its way in to the Gibson factory via a German supplier. Its hard to describe in a few words the impact of the documentary but I does make you think twice about the wood you may be handing and the impact it is having in some places such as Madagascar. The film showed hundreds of Ebony fingerboards ready for export ready cut to size at the lumber yard. The rosewood that was sent to China was turned into furniture to fund the lavish lifestyles of China's new rich, such as a rosewood bed selling for a $1,000,000.00 US John |
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| Author: | segovia [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Explains why not available outside the UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2011/jul/28/bbc-iplayer-global-ipad-launch They plan to sell it by subscription on the i-pad John |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Todd Stock wrote: Next to deep fried guinea pig (there is a pink and orange street cart in Banos, Ecuador...yum), my favorite. I'm told the taste is somewhere between the Bald Eagle and the Spotted Owl in flavor! |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Well, look at how much of the original forest has been converted to desert already, and the exponentially growing population. No way the cutters can stop until there's no more. I'd avoid the wood, but I don't think it would help. The cutters hardly get any of the money anyway, so the "timber barons" could easily keep up the pay even if the demand is reduced. The Lacey Act has its heart in the right place, taking USA out of it, but it still doesn't do much to solve the problem. Hopefully the rosewoods and ebonies will go on CITES appendix 1 soon, since as it stands it will all just go to waste at the Chinese furniture factories. But even then, I'll be surprised if the human population there decides to a) quit having so many babies, b) leave the island before the forest is all gone, or c) starve to death when there are still trees to cut (or slash&burn to make room). A sad time in Earth history. The Amazon is not looking long for the world either. |
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| Author: | segovia [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
The scientists who is working in Madagascar observing the Lemurs was the person responsible for getting the US Government involved which in turn led to the Gibson investigation. An observation of note is that the deforestation is not directly the cause of the Lemurs decline, the loggers kill anything on legs so they can eat. J |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
I liked the bit with the interview of the Gibson manager, who (paraphrasing) "bought it from a german company and had no idea it was from a national park but yes, everyone knew it was happening" Yeah, right!! Completely innocent he looked!! |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
In 1975, when I began building guitars, the entire population of luthiers in the US (at least) was alerted to the endangered nature of Brazilian Rosewood and urged to discontinue its use so as to conserve what was left. What actually happened was luthiers and other wood workers went on a buying binge to get it while the getting was good, prices were around $50 a set for nice stuff. All you hand wringers can take a deep breath. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
The thing I like the least about the luthiery world is the bloated importance given to the materials used for the back and sides. This seems more prevalent among steel string players and makers (who usually flip a guitar over first thing to see how pretty the back is) and is one of the reasons I'm doing classicals now. At least most of those folks actually play the thing before they oogle it. Make no mistake though, steel string makers are more fun than classical makers who in generial are, shall we say, serious. I fear following the aesthetic path of blingier, ever rarer and exclusive woods for guitars will eventually lead us right over the precipice. I think it's incumbent on all of us to develop an aesthetic that doesn't depend on the last scrap of extinct wood, animal tooth or shell. I, for one, like lemurs enough to not cut down the forests that they live in. |
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| Author: | Steve_E [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
I live in the Almond capital of the world. I'm drying a bunch of Almond pieces now for a multi-piece back. I may also try Cherry, Orange, Apple and other fruit varieties. Who knows. I may start a "fruit-of-the-lutherie" brand. Steve |
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| Author: | ernie [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
hug a tree, shave a whale , eata guinea pig??, ca fruits/nuts / flakes wood of the month club guitars, sounds like a great marketing plan to me.
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| Author: | JoeUlman [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
David LaPlante wrote: The thing I like the least about the luthiery world is the bloated importance given to the materials used for the back and sides. This seems more prevalent among steel string players and makers (who usually flip a guitar over first thing to see how pretty the back is) and is one of the reasons I'm doing classicals now. At least most of those folks actually play the thing before they oogle it. Make no mistake though, steel string makers are more fun than classical makers who in generial are, shall we say, serious. I fear following the aesthetic path of blingier, ever rarer and exclusive woods for guitars will eventually lead us right over the precipice. I think it's incumbent on all of us to develop an aesthetic that doesn't depend on the last scrap of extinct wood, animal tooth or shell. I, for one, like lemurs enough to not cut down the forests that they live in. +1 I can’t understand why anyone would currently want to sign their name to an instrument built from a stash of wood taken from endangered forests. Even if the wood was obtained legally, perhaps even decades ago, it’s now the 21st century, long after we ‘knew’ better. Joe |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Quote: I can’t understand why anyone would currently want to sign their name to an instrument built from a stash of wood taken from endangered forests. Even if the wood was obtained legally, perhaps even decades ago, it’s now the 21st century, long after we ‘knew’ better. I'll tell you why, because wood is wood, and wood is what we use. There isn't "endangered" wood, there is just wood. Sure, today Mad Rosewood is endangered, and one day it will be gone, then something else will take its place. Our great-grandchildren will struggle to get some Slash Pine to build with. What? Do you think the world is going to last forever? |
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| Author: | ernie [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
David +1, I think your optimistic realism is falling on deaf ears. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
David Newton wrote: Quote: I can’t understand why anyone would currently want to sign their name to an instrument built from a stash of wood taken from endangered forests. Even if the wood was obtained legally, perhaps even decades ago, it’s now the 21st century, long after we ‘knew’ better. I'll tell you why, because wood is wood, and wood is what we use. There isn't "endangered" wood, there is just wood. Sure, today Mad Rosewood is endangered, and one day it will be gone, then something else will take its place. Our great-grandchildren will struggle to get some Slash Pine to build with. What? Do you think the world is going to last forever? Endangered forests were mentioned , not wood, not the same. There isn't "endangered" wood, there is just wood. Sure, today Mad Rosewood is endangered - Eh???? and one day it will be gone No, not inevitably. Our great-grandchildren will struggle to get some Slash Pine to build with. I for one am determined this will not happen. Do you think the world is going to last forever? I know it will disappear in a super nova or whatever eventually, but why do people have to hasten the departure of anything put on this good earth?? |
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| Author: | JoeUlman [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
David Newton wrote: I'll tell you why, because wood is wood, and wood is what we use. There isn't "endangered" wood, there is just wood. Sure, today Mad Rosewood is endangered, and one day it will be gone, then something else will take its place. Our great-grandchildren will struggle to get some Slash Pine to build with. What? Do you think the world is going to last forever? Sadly, much of the world thinks this way and the idea of ‘sustainability’ isn’t in our grasp. Joe |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
...the latest installment of a conversion that's been going on for at least thirty five years... David LaPlante wrote: "The thing I like the least about the luthiery world is the bloated importance given to the materials used for the back and sides." Agreed. There's more magical thinking in that department than you can shake a Brazilian rosewood stick at. I suspect that the myths won't be given up until the wood is all gone. As I hinted above, this is a much more complicated subject than it can seem. The root is the three 'c's' of course: children, chainsaws, and cars, but it's not foregone that all the forests are destined to disappear. Sustainable practices can work, but, as Ostrom points out in her book 'Managing the Commons', we don't really understand very well how to set up the sorts of institutions that will preserve them. Personally, I'm not at all convinced that the CITES model, of removing the market value from endangered species, is going to work for wood the way it (arguably) has for elephants. If you can't sell the tusks you might not have much reason to shoot an elephant, but if you can't sell a rosewood tree you can always farm the land it's on and make a living that way. The only impediment is getting rid of the tree: in Brazil they use the sort of 'lightening strike' that comes in cans at the gas station, or so I'm told. It has always seemed to me that the best way to preserve trees is to make them valuable, and control the cut. The latter is the problem, of course. Either way, the 'traditional' woods are going to get more expensive and harder to get: it's just that, if we do it right, there will always be some around, even if most folks can't afford it. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
The market (at least for steel string guitars) seems to focus on cosmetics more than what the instrument is designed to do: namely to produce a good sound. Of course many traditional luthiers who makes gut strung guitars or other traditional lute like instruments care more about the sound but steel string/electric guitar players care more about what wood its made of and what sound he thinks those wood combination would give even though the same result could be achieved with less expensive and endangered woods. I think top woods are far more important (I am not alone in thinking this) and even more important is the way a luthier voices them, however someone will buy a guitar made from Brazilian Rosewood for 5000 dollars even though it sounds like crap just because it's Brazilian Rosewood so it must sound good. Psychology plays a big role in marketing and the true value of a particular instrument and materials its made from is not even in the consideration when it comes to how much value it has. I think if someone is a master of psychology and marketing, he would be able to convince someone to buy a guitar made from turd, that sounds like turd for a very high price if he plays his culture and psychological cards right. Someone who will value something for what it really is is in short supply these days... |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
Too bad one of my favorite primates is going to be gone before I die, maybe. |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascar Rosewood - Gibson - Lacey Act |
David LaPlante wrote: This seems more prevalent among steel string players and makers (who usually flip a guitar over first thing to see how pretty the back is) and is one of the reasons I'm doing classicals now. Interesting observation...I would have thought exactly the opposite. |
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