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Found my zen on binding
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35108		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Found my zen on binding
I have always stuggled on binding. It is one of my favorite parts to design and on of my absolute least favorite thing to execute- until now. I have read many threads around here about binding methods. One the last two guitars (which have had little to no issues with binding and purfling) I have taken some of the tips I have been reading and combined them into what I think will be my go to method for binding.

I use the williams jig for cutting channels- fyi.

First, I take more time now in perfecting the bend on my binding. I hate fighting with it while the glue is drying. Next, I knock off the inside corner of the binding. After the channels are routed- making sure the body is perfectly square to bench top- I move on to the dreaded application process. I used to just use masking tape. Now, I use masking tape to hold it in its general correct position- at this point, I am making sure it is pushed all the way down in the channel. Then, I move to using rubber bands. This is when I am sucking in any gaps I can. Once the bands are on, I use one long clamp to keep the ends sucked in. By the way, I took a pretty standard jig for doing binding with either rope or bands and added a lazy susan bearing to it so that I didn't have to be walking around it all the time. Makes it a lot easier.

I still occasionally have some gaps here and there, but they are very small and can be reheated and sucked in with ease.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Keep posting things you have found that work for you. Trust me, they help other people out.

Attachment:
binding coco.jpg
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Chris -

I too struggle with binding - one of the most demanding steps in making a guitar with really tight fit and finish.

When you say you "knock off the inside corner of the binding" what do you mean by this? Can you provide some more detail on this step? Thanks.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Corky,
What I mean by "knock off the inside corner" is that I either sand off or scrape off the corner that will be seated on the inside (bottom) of the channel. This way it is not holding out the binding incase there are any inconsistencies in the channel or in case there is something sitting in that corner- i.e. dust, wood shavings, a tiny monster that doesn't want you to have nicely seated binding, etc.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
I'm in the same boat, I think. My binding results got 75% better after I stopped being scared of the bending pipe and got the bindings to the near exact right shape. On the last one, I used rubber bands at the waist and tape everywhere else and it worked pretty well. I think it would have went perfectly except I didn't trim the ends quite enough so I had a gap or two at the lower bout since the binding was a little too long. The waist was my trouble spot previously so I was still pretty pleased to see progress even if it wasn't perfect.

I think next time I'm going to try using cotton rope ala Somogyi and see how that works out. I might try it with Titebond Extend so I don't have to be in a rush to get everything all fitted and trimmed.
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Chris Ensor wrote:
Corky,
What I mean by "knock off the inside corner" is that I either sand off or scrape off the corner that will be seated on the inside (bottom) of the channel. This way it is not holding out the binding incase there are any inconsistencies in the channel or in case there is something sitting in that corner- i.e. dust, wood shavings, a tiny monster that doesn't want you to have nicely seated binding, etc.


Chris - thanks. This makes sense. I'll try it next time. Thanks.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
It is also called "chamfering" the binding. I do that too, Chris and it makes a big difference! I like your lazy susan idea. I do it exactly like you described, except that I hold the body in my hands as I wrap the rubberband. Your way is better. Could you post a picture of the binding jig without the body on it? Thanks for the thread! Beth
Author:  Michael Smith [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
I Ca my bindings usually so rubber bands are not an option. If you get CA on them you have a mess. I bought 100' of 1/8" shock cord on ebay for cheap. The rubber in the shock cord is covered with nylon so you don't have problems. The nice thing about the shock cord is if you need a lot of pull you can take a couple of wraps or stretch a little further. I'm using the 1/8th inch shock cord for ukuleles. If I was doing guitars I would get 200' of 3/16" shock cord though the 1/8th or even 1/4" would work as well.
Author:  MikeyV [ Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
I use CA also. I'm building my second guitar, and I've done both that way with little difficulty. One style 18, and one style 28.
The only problem is gluing my fingers to the guitar! [clap]

I start at one end and tack it with medium CA. Then align a few inches at a time and wick some thin CA in there. I usually flow a second coat on there after I've done maybe one quarter of the rim. It also allows me to do each strip of purling or binding separately. For instance, on a Martin Style 28, I glue in the herringbone first, then the Ivoriod binding on second. It's pretty easy, and the CA really makes for a clean appearance after scraping. Also, you have to seal the channels with shellac before gluing with CA to avoid staining. I do two coats of Zinser Sealcoat cut to a 50/50 mix of Zinser and Denatured Alcohol.

Anyway, the results are great, and it's fast, but I really feel it's not "true" to form. I use HHG whenever I can, which is pretty much everything except gluing the plates to the rim, and the bindings. I'd love to get to the point where I can use HHG in both of those places also. But really, gluing several strips in at once with HHG and wrapping it with cord seems nightmarish to me. I'm sure it's not that hard if you practice, but it looks scary. I also have thoughts about if the binding ever had to come off in the future. How easy is it to get that stuff to separate?
Author:  Miketobey [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Try surgical tubing-it is relatively cheap for a "purposed" product and it is easy to wrap and it can be tightened over a range. I would not use with CA without testing first. It can be purchased in quite long uninterrupted lengths. Use the scraps to make or refurbish your slingshots. I know some of you have a venerable Wrist Rocket somewhere. Well, there is the possibility that your spouse may have secretly disposed of it to keep such childishness from the children.
Author:  EddieLee [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Chris, What glue do you use. Would Fish Glue make sense because of the long open time?
Author:  crazicarl [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Is there any reason that you don't chamfer the inside corner before taking it to the pipe? It would seem easier to chamfer while straight.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
elb_flys wrote:
Chris, What glue do you use. Would Fish Glue make sense because of the long open time?


I use titebond 1. I like that it can swell tiny gaps and that it won't stain the spruce.

crazicarl wrote:
Is there any reason that you don't chamfer the inside corner before taking it to the pipe? It would seem easier to chamfer while straight.


You can chamfer before hand. I don't usually because I don't want to bend it the wrong direction and end up with the chamfer on the outside rather than the inside.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Corky Long wrote:
Could you post a picture of the binding jig without the body on it?


Attachment:
binding jig 1.jpg


Attachment:
binding jig 2.jpg
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Thanks Chris....that is really a nice jig. I'm gonna make me one of those before the next binding job!! bliss
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Found my zen on binding
If you "re-heat and close any gaps", I'm assuming you are using HHG or Fish glue, correct? I like fish glue, but I wouldn't say it has a long open time.......just longer than HHG. Titebond Extend is an interesting option.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Darryl Young wrote:
If you "re-heat and close any gaps", I'm assuming you are using HHG or Fish glue, correct? I like fish glue, but I wouldn't say it has a long open time.......just longer than HHG. Titebond Extend is an interesting option.


I use titebond 1.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Found my zen on binding
Can you re-heat TB1 and re-glue?......or are you adding additional glue?
Author:  letseatpaste [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
You can do it with TB1, but not on an old joint. If it's a day or two old I think it works okay, I usually try to reheat and reset the joint as soon as I'm aware there was a problem. I wouldn't do it with anything critical/structural, but I have been able to reduce or close gaps in binding like that.
Author:  Wes Paul [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
I use CA glue on the purfling and Titebond on the binding. Works great especially if your doing side purfling you can get the miters at the end graft real nice!
Author:  letseatpaste [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Quote:
With fish glue you'll have to wait 12 hours (and 24 might be better). The same with Titebond or white glue I assume? I keep some white glue around but use fish more frequently - I like the fact that it can sit on my shelf for years on end and I just know it works.


With TB1 I can give it about an hour and it's good to go as long as it's not going to carry any major loads on the joint. I think I learned that from Harry Fleishman. I'm not usually in that much of a hurry, though.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Found my zen on binding
Is TB Extend available mail order only or do some box stores carry it?
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
For wood binding, which is all I use, taking off the inside edge and making sure the binding closely fits the contours does the trick just fine. I like wide rubber bands, #107. Two tied together works well for guitars and single bands are good for smaller instruments like the ukes shown here that I bound yesterday.They available from Amazon if you can't find them at your local store. Titebond Original should work for all your needs. For multiple purflings, it's best to use a small brush and spread the glue just a little ahead of where you are working. Keep a rag and some water handy to get the dried, caked glue off your hands as you work.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
letseatpaste wrote:
You can do it with TB1, but not on an old joint. If it's a day or two old I think it works okay, I usually try to reheat and reset the joint as soon as I'm aware there was a problem. I wouldn't do it with anything critical/structural, but I have been able to reduce or close gaps in binding like that.


+1! I let my binding sit for about 1.5 hours and then check for anything that needs to be touched up. If you wait too long, you might as well start over.
Author:  Beth Mayer [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Wow Bob, that's some prolific uke bindery you've got going on! I feel accomplished if I bind an entire single body in one day [clap]
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Found my zen on binding
Beth, It may look impressive, but it's not really. It's just a matter of having the tools and a method. I've been doing this long enough that I've standardized some things and that makes the process easy. I make all my guitar bindings or uke bindings the same thickness, so it's easy to grab the correct cutter and cut the right ledges first pass. Same thing for the purflings. I know the right cutter to use for the various different purflings I normally use. I don't need to check to see if my bindings and purflings will fit anymore. They just will. As far as how much you get done in a day, well doing binding is mostly a matter of waiting for the glue to dry. Might as well do more instruments at the same time. It takes an hour or so for the Titebond to set up enough, so you might as well be binding another instrument. Ain't nothing hard about making instruments. Anyone with patience gets there, although quite a few builders like to add smoke and mirrors to make it look hard.
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