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| Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34932 |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Doubt this stuff can cross any borders, or is all that PC these days, but that's another story ... I have a chance to buy some (more) whale bone from the late 1920s, but it ain't all that cheap. Also even one or two sperm whale teeth (officially an 'ivory'), which are plenty big enough anyway, but even less cheap.... Anyone have experience on the suitability of this stuff for nuts/saddles? Or #2, whether any additional cost over standard bone is worth it? Thanks.... |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Never heard of anyone using it, doesn't mean it hasn't been used. Doubt the upcharge would be received very well. Cow bone is plenty good enough, inexpensive and PC. |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Just be careful pulling those teeth from those big fish (I know not really a fish) |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Sorry, I can't help you with whale teeth etc. but...here's an "out of the box" idea... I understand that the balls for billiards (a game like pool) were originally made from ivory...so therefore the material modern billiard/pool balls are made from may be suitable for nuts/saddles. I had it in my head that billiard/pool balls were ceramic, but maybe not. Has anyone had a go using whatever the ball material is? |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Just use the usual stuff dude. It works. "spend your money on lessons and practice - it will serve you far more." Filippo So true, Filippo. |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
LOL all valid points, and thanks! (except stan, i'm pretty sure it IS a fish, although i wouldn't want to get one of these bones stuck between MY teeth). Trevor, i've played my share of stick, won a few, lost a few... as an fyi, these teeth look like they'd almost, but not quite, make a ball at their biggest spot, 'ceptin that they're hollow down there, so it wouldn't roll good. The whole tapered/hollow aspect of them would also seriously restrict yield, so i'm kind of off that idea anyway. Sure I was a bit excited for a minute, I'm not sure anyone has ever offered to sell me a whale tooth before ya know.... The price/issues on those likely mean they don't make much sense. The bone on the other hand (trying to keep CITES etc in mind)... Looking at the process of harvesting cow etc bone, this stuff is starting to look more like a steal ... i can't see as how it'd need to be boiled clean after 80odd years, sure feels pretty slick, it has no marrow and seems solid from side to side(!) so should have some good yield regardless, compensating quite a bit for the up front cost. Still that small matter of restricted trade maybe despite the age, and the related issues ... but it does seem so nice too.... so torn..... Here's a pic of the small bit i already acquired, in case anyone cares... other available piece in size is quite similar to a walking stick (rib?): Attachment: bone.jpg
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| Author: | Tim L [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Usually the bone is fairly porous, especially if it has been laying outside for a while. I am basing that on reconstructed skeletons at the marine lab. OTOH I have a fossilized eardrum from a whale that is the consistency of granite. Teeth? Baleen? Think baleen has been used for binding before. For what it costs and for what most of the good stuff is, it is probably better off in a museum or lab than on a guitar. Don't think the bang for the buck is there as far as the sound goes. |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Just use the usual stuff dude. It works. This head of a pin stuff is more BS. 99% of the people out there can't play well enough to tell the difference on 80% of the guitars built to any level of differentiation. As I recently told one person - "spend your money on lessons and practice - it will serve you far more." Filippo By this argument, no one should bother with custom guitars at all. Those $400 chinese models at Guitar Center are more than adequate. |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Tim L wrote: Usually the bone is fairly porous, especially if it has been laying outside for a while. I am basing that on reconstructed skeletons at the marine lab. OTOH I have a fossilized eardrum from a whale that is the consistency of granite. Teeth? Baleen? Think baleen has been used for binding before. For what it costs and for what most of the good stuff is, it is probably better off in a museum or lab than on a guitar. Don't think the bang for the buck is there as far as the sound goes. You may know more than I, but from what I understand, baleen and sperm whale teeth share nothing in common. baleen is hair and sperm whale teeth are teeth. A sperm whale is a rare whale based predasaurus. This bone wasn't sitting on the bottom of the ocean forever, it came straight from a whaling factory in late 1920 and has been stored adequately (or even better than that!) since then. These are smallish for whale bone, not the kind of thing people made entranceways out of... |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Quote: Those $400 chinese models at Guitar Center are more than adequate yes, they are, actually. anyone who can play well can play the sh*t out of a $400 chinese guitar too. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Bone gets its strength and density from the work it is subjected to, the problem with whale bone is that a whale's mass is supported by water throughout its life so most of a whale's skeleton is made up of low density spongy bone, the exception usually being the jawbone. I know that in some areas with no tree growth such as the northern Scottish Islands whale ribs were used structurally in place of timber, but the only part used to make tools was the jaw. I think you are better off using cow bone, or as I do camel bone as this will have been walked on for at least a couple of years so 'work' hardened. Colin |
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| Author: | Tim L [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Al, Baleen is hair. My point was that I believe baleen has been used on instruments before. Don't think I have ever heard of someone using whale teeth. Is there a difference in density between the dentin and pulp material? Tim |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
I just saw the whole teeth intact so I'm not really sure how it's put together, but size-wize they're probably not of much interest anyway. (Particularly at the cost they're being offered at!) This particular bone seems pretty far from porous, although I haven't cut in to it yet, but it sure seems like it's going to be rock solid everywhere. Maybe that's why this was the stuff that was kept from the factory by one of the workers rather than some other random chunks(?)... I'll let y'all know how it goes tho! Thanks for all the insight! |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
My brother is a commercial fisherman and has some old whale bones hanging in his living room as decoration, they seem to be oily. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
In the U.S. whale ivory and whale bone are generally more restricted than most other ivories. Unless properly documented the teeth can't be sold across state lines, and many states also have laws restricting it's sale. Warthog ivory is quite nice and is less restricted than many other ivories. Mammoth ivory is also plenty hard, despite what some may say, and comes in a variety of interesting colors. It's sale is also less regulated. With the current climate of regulatory zealousness I would avoid all whale products and many ivory products. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Well I wonder what impact using fish bone of any kind for the nut may have upon scale length??? But then whales being so large and covered with blubber are likely to be quite weight conscious so perhaps they've developed an aversion to scales over time. If that's the case then I reckon you should be just fine. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Pegasusguitars [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
This discussion reminds me of those stories of people posting dumb things on their Facebook page and then getting fired. As Clay mentioned, whale products are highly restricted. If you are thinking about buying some, which you probably should not be, the last thing you should be doing is talking about doing it on the web unless you are dead certain the pieces are Federally registered, numbered, and individually documented already. I don't know about whale bone, but for those Sperm whale teeth they don't just slap your wrist, they slap you round bigtime and relieve you of your extra cash! |
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| Author: | jac68984 [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
[quote="AlBDarned"]LOL all valid points, and thanks! (except stan, i'm pretty sure it IS a fish, although i wouldn't want to get one of these bones stuck between MY teeth). Stan's right. A sperm whale is not a fish; it's a mammal. |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Jim_H wrote: Filippo Morelli wrote: Just use the usual stuff dude. It works. This head of a pin stuff is more BS. 99% of the people out there can't play well enough to tell the difference on 80% of the guitars built to any level of differentiation. As I recently told one person - "spend your money on lessons and practice - it will serve you far more." Filippo By this argument, no one should bother with custom guitars at all. Those $400 chinese models at Guitar Center are more than adequate. I know guys who can smoke on those $400 guitars and guys that suck on $2000 guitars |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Pegasusguitars wrote: This discussion reminds me of those stories of people posting dumb things on their Facebook page and then getting fired. As Clay mentioned, whale products are highly restricted. If you are thinking about buying some, which you probably should not be, the last thing you should be doing is talking about doing it on the web unless you are dead certain the pieces are Federally registered, numbered, and individually documented already. I don't know about whale bone, but for those Sperm whale teeth they don't just slap your wrist, they slap you round bigtime and relieve you of your extra cash! http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/protectedresources/buying.htm wrote: I have marine mammal parts which pre-date the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972. Are there any restrictions on what I can do with these? If you can establish the parts were obtained before 1972, neither the MMPA nor ESA apply, and there are no legal restrictions or prohibitions on what you may do with these. However, the burden of proof lies with you, and you may be asked to produce evidence of the history of such parts in the event you wish to sell them. This prior status may be established by submitting an affidavit to NOAA Fisheries (50 CFR 216.14). Fossilized ivory is assumed to predate both Acts; no prohibitions apply. Believe me, I wouldn't kill a whale to make a guitar nut. However, this stuff has been sitting around for 80odd years in any event. I'm still torn on it as well regardless...... |
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| Author: | Hupaand [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
If the bone was soft enough for old time sailors to cut designs in it, it might be too soft for nuts. Lifting weights helps bone density, swimming doesn't, so the jaw comment sounds reasonable. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
Hi Al, You are in Canada, and I don't know what the Canadian laws are concerning cetaceans and other marine mammals and parts thereof. In the U.S. the laws are very restrictive for owning and selling them and the penalties are pretty steep.The Feds don't care if it is recently collected or heirloom stuff, without the proper documentation if you sell it across state lines or international borders they may bust you for it. |
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| Author: | AlBDarned [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Whale Bone for nuts/saddles? Sperm Whale Teeth? |
The NOAA website excerpt I quoted at the bottom of the last page that says there is no legal restriction on pre-1972 parts is American. If you read the provided link (in the quote bit) you will also see that it says, at the very bottom of that page: This is an official United States government website. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Marine Fisheries Service is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce. So to sum up, according to the US government, "If you can establish the parts were obtained before 1972, neither the MMPA nor ESA apply, and there are no legal restrictions or prohibitions on what you may do with these." EDIT: Seems a given state can impose more strenuous laws, and also CITES etc may deal with importation restrictions in addition etc.... a minefield, sure;) |
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