Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Sanding after pore fill?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34774		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  James W B [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Sanding after pore fill?
Here`s my procedure.I`m looking for suggestions.
1. sand the guitar to 220.
2. 2 coats mixed shellac to about a 1.5 Lb. cut. Let dry overnight
3. pore fill with medium Ca. I like it better than Z-poxy because of the the time factor.
4. sand Ca back to wood when dry with 180 grit.Here`s what baffles me.Since the guitar was originally sanded to 220,I now sand again to 220 to eliminate scratches from sanding the Ca with 180.
Is this necessary?It seems it is to me. Maybe not.I`ve read some folks sand Ca with 150 grit.
5. since I sanded back to wood ,I shoot another coat of shellac. If it looks like pretty good coverage ,I`ll let dry overnight and repeat steps 3 & 4.If the coverage of shellac seems a little light I`ll shoot one more coat before repeating steps 3 & 4.
6. check for un-filled pours.There are always a few,Ticks me off. So I usually repeat the whole process again starting at step 2.Is this necessary ?
7. by now I`m pretty much over it,after 3 coats of Ca and hope the finish and drop filling will take care of it.It seems with some of the more porous rose woods that`s a not.
This is by far my least favorite part of a build.It seems like over sanding and pore filling.I`ve had pretty good results after all is said and done,but very time consuming, which I wish I had more of.Am I doing to much? The biggest question for me, is it necessary to re-sand with 220 after sandin the Ca to wood with 180?Any tips are appreciated.
Happy New Year,
James
Author:  woody b [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
What grit you need to sand to is determined by your topcoat. Different materials "hide" scratches differently. Also different materials may need different "teeth" to adhere to. My best advice is to determine, on scrap what's the coarsest grit your finish will hide. I have pore filled with CA in the past, but I'm not a fan. For me it dries too quickly to be able to get it down into the pores. This can result in a coat that's really thick, meaning extra sanding, or un filled pores. 220 is kinda a universal "sand bare wood to" grit. To me bare wood starts to look right at 220 grit. This may be a conditioned response from years of seeing bare wood sanded to that grit.
If my memory is correct you use EM6000 (?) or some other waterborne finish. (?) I'm don't know how well they hide, or fill scratches, or what kind of "teeth" they need for adhesion.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Pore filling isn't my favorite process either. :) Filling and sanding till they are filled is just what needs to be done to do it no matter what you use. I only use 220 myself in the process so i don't worry about hiding the scratches from 180. I use z-poxy most the time now though and find 220 to works the best for me. I don't need to use 180 first, the 220 sands it real easy. I don't put it on very heavy to begin with and remove almost all of it with a credit card first. If the 180 is leaveing scratches that you are seeing under finish, i would sand with the 220 after to remove them. Really the only way in that case.
Author:  James W B [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Woody I have used em 6000 on the last few.I`ve always sanded to 320 ater I`m satisfied with pour fill.Then 2 more coats of shellac,and lightly sand with 400 then on to 6000.I thought I`d try just 220 this time to eliminate that last 320 sand.I`ve never had an adhesion problem with 6000 sanding to 320,or visual scratches.So maybe I`m goofing up,by only sanding to 220.Some other 6000 users may want to chime in with their experiences with the stuff.I still like Nitro better.The little woman has put the veto on the fumes in the basement shop that stink up the house.The only real advantage for me with 6000 is quicker to buff out,and of course the volatility of the stuff,which really hasn`t been a problem for me.And also I think your correct Mark that you have to sand your pour fill to at least the last grit or finer before continuing with finish .
James
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Why CA...?!? idunno
Author:  James W B [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Ca has been used by a lot of people to fill pores.Can be sanded in 1 hour instead of over night like z-poxy.I`ve used z-poxy several times and even though it dries slower it doesn`t seem to me anyway to do a better job.It still takes at least 2 coats and If you ask me it needs 3 as do most pore fill jobs .There always seems to be a few pores left after 2 coats.Then it`s up to the finish to fill the rest which can be a crap shoot.At least it has been for me.
James
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Lmi micro beads or timber mate dry in 30 minutes... sand in few minutes with 320... non-toxic. You can also make a nice porefill with pumice in a few hours... I just can't imagine something worst for the health than flooding a surface with CA...
Author:  woody b [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
As Francis pointed out there's a bunch of pore fillers that aren't CA or Epoxy. I use CrystaLac waterborne grain filler. It's not toxic (wear a mask during sanding) doesn't shrink, and can be sanded and re coated (if necessary) in an hour.
Attachment:
Filled with CrystaLac.JPG
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Although I haven't tried Crystalac, nothing I've tried brings the depth of wood more than epoxy or CA. To me, any none translucide filler dulls any wood it's applied on.

I tried CA and although the result was fine, you do need to be quite well equipped with goggles and respiarotr mask, otherwise it just feels like cutting 100 onions at all at once! The idea of sanding/scraping the filler within the next hour is appealing, but not that much to me anyway.
Author:  James W B [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Woody do you seal the wood with shellac or anything before using crystalac.Will it stain spruce if you don`t?And how many coats did it take.I`m always open to new ideas.The Ca smell doesn`t really bother me ,but is probably a lot harder to sand.Any info and tips on crystalac would be helpful.I may give it a try.I have used crystalac finish ,but like em 6000 better.
James
Author:  John Arnold [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
I have used water-base pore filler for much of my luthier career. The formula is Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Filler, darkened with latex paint and thinned with water. It can be sanded in 10 or 15 minutes.
Quote:
To me, any none translucide filler dulls any wood it's applied on.

I seal the wood before applying filler. That prevents the dulling effect, and keeps the filler from staining any wood purfling or the spruce top.
Before the finishing process, I sand the bare wood with 220, and also use 220 to sand the filler.
I have tried several alternatives (epoxy, CA, oil-base filler), but I keep coming back to the 'Old Reliable'.
Author:  Jim_H [ Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
John,

That sounds intriguing.. What do you use to seal prior to filling? Just a shellac wash?
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
James W B wrote:
The Ca smell doesn`t really bother me


....it should. That's REALLY toxic.
Author:  jeb98 [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
John Arnold wrote:
I have used water-base pore filler for much of my luthier career. The formula is Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Filler, darkened with latex paint and thinned with water. It can be sanded in 10 or 15 minutes.
Quote:
To me, any none translucide filler dulls any wood it's applied on.

I seal the wood before applying filler. That prevents the dulling effect, and keeps the filler from staining any wood purfling or the spruce top.
Before the finishing process, I sand the bare wood with 220, and also use 220 to sand the filler.
I have tried several alternatives (epoxy, CA, oil-base filler), but I keep coming back to the 'Old Reliable'.


John,

That does sound very simple, and I'd love to try it. Behlens pore filler hasn't worked too well for me so I'd love a simpler solution. Does your Elmer's glue recipe work when your going for the Martin look? And if so, is it just a matter of finding the correct color of latex paint?

Thank you,

Jonas
Author:  woody b [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
James W B wrote:
Woody do you seal the wood with shellac or anything before using crystalac.Will it stain spruce if you don`t?And how many coats did it take.I`m always open to new ideas.The Ca smell doesn`t really bother me ,but is probably a lot harder to sand.Any info and tips on crystalac would be helpful.I may give it a try.I have used crystalac finish ,but like em 6000 better.
James

I don't seal before. More info here. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=33117
Author:  york [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
I like the idea of a clear pore filler that does not alter the color of the wood. It looks like the Crystalac is clear. Does it dry clear in the pores?
Author:  Steve_E [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
How many of you have done only "minimal" pore fill? I kind of like the open pore look.

How would it look under the clear coat? Does the clear coat sink into the pores? Though the finish won't be "glass smooth", it will be "glass bumpy".

Any photo's of a more natural look?
Steve
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Here is a pore filler I haven't yet tried but sounds promising (I've read posts from other builders who have used it). It's a lacquer based pore filler from Hood Finishing Products called Quick Drying Wood Grain Filler (abailable in quarts). Brush or spray and dries in 10 - 15 minutes, sand in 1 hour. Solvent based so doesn't raise the grain. Can be top coated with most lacquers, vinyl sealers, MagnaShield®, conversion varnishes, HYDROCOTE® brand water-based finishes, and most other water-based finishes including latex paints. Availiable clear but can be tinted (and the mfg may have some tints available). Pore fill done in roughly 4 hours.

Anomalies were a bit of cloudiness if too thick coat of filler is applied and incompatibility with sanding sealers, like Deft, with additives (soap). Mfg. recommends Behlens or Mohawk vinyl sealer.

http://www.hoodfinishing.com/2011-Catalog/Grain-Fillers.pdf
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Quote:
Does your Elmer's glue recipe work when your going for the Martin look? And if so, is it just a matter of finding the correct color of latex paint?

It is Elmer's wood filler, not glue (very different). It has the silex in it that makes it easy to sand.
http://www.michaels.com/Elmer%27s-Carpenter%27s-Interior-Wood-Filler/gc0222,default,pd.html
The color of the paint is the key. I usually get the darkest brown I can find, then mix in a little black.
Author:  woody b [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
york wrote:
I like the idea of a clear pore filler that does not alter the color of the wood. It looks like the Crystalac is clear. Does it dry clear in the pores?



It's clear. If you want it colored you can tint it with trans tint, or pretty much any other dye, tint or paint that will mix with water.


John Arnold wrote:
Quote:
Does your Elmer's glue recipe work when your going for the Martin look? And if so, is it just a matter of finding the correct color of latex paint?

It is Elmer's wood filler, not glue (very different). It has the silex in it that makes it easy to sand.
http://www.michaels.com/Elmer%27s-Carpenter%27s-Interior-Wood-Filler/gc0222,default,pd.html
The color of the paint is the key. I usually get the darkest brown I can find, then mix in a little black.


What color is the Elmers filler to start with? Could trans tint be used to color it or would it need something with more body?
Author:  James W B [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Thanks Woody ,Nice Tute.What about filling rosettes any chance of staining spruce.
James
Author:  woody b [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
James W B wrote:
Thanks Woody ,Nice Tute.What about filling rosettes any chance of staining spruce.
James

It won't stain spruce.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
Well, it seems I will have to give this Crystalac a try then!

Thanks for letting us know about it Woody!
Author:  dberkowitz [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
I used the Timbermate with great results -- better than any pore filler I've ever used. It dried hard, went into the pores easily, sanded easily and is reusable! The only problem is that it needs a lot of pigment to get it colored deeply enough. I used Transtint without a problem as yet (the guitar is almost a year old sapele guitar). Allegedly Jeff Jewitt suggested that it was a bad idea to use Transtint with this stuff because its a dye and the dye will migrate, or so he says, and suggested that a pigment would be better. It hasn't moved yet. Mixol is a pigment based product that would likely do fine as a substitute for the transtint. At any rate, it worked better than epoxy, better than Chemcraft, McFaddens, or anything else. It stayed flat.

Seal well, apply, allow to dry, level, reseal, spray top coats.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sanding after pore fill?
David, what did you use as a sealer?
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/