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Glue for binding
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34592		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  gosport [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Glue for binding
I am working on my first guitar and am at the binding stage. I have titebond original and also have some medium viscocity CA glue. Which one is best?

If I use the CA glue is it best to use shellac in the binding channel, and will that interfere with the glue bonding to the wood.

Thanks
Author:  wbergman [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I expect you will get other answers and better advice. For the time being, I offer this. To use CA, you would use pure shellac (not hardware wtore stuff with wax) to avoid the CA staining the wood. I don't think you should use CA. Most people who use CA install the entire binding dry (after the shellac dries in the channel), then use the thinest CA available and let capillary action wick the CA into the channel. If you use a medium CA, it will not wick in. If you try to use your medium CA to glue down the channel gradually (as you would with Titebond) they the CA could set up "instantly" and prevent you from getting your binding positioned properly. That is just my two cents.
Author:  weslewis [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
:| I have settled in on using thin CA applied with a pipeettes , using clamps to get tight joints...VERY important to apply a good coat of shellac, I use Zinsser dewaxed shellac. if you dont the CA will leave unsightly stains in the spruce !!!
Author:  Mark Groza [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Are your bindings wood or are they plastic. For wood , I like titebond.Never had one let go with titebond. ;)
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I used the "tape on bindings dry, wick in CA glue"-method for a while, but I have gone back to water based glue. One reason is the brittleness of the CA glue line, and the possible prospect of the glue wicking in where you don't want it, but I find that it is easier to get a better fit this way, probably in some part thanks to the moisture in the glue expanding the wood in the channel and the appointments. I like to use fish glue as it has a long open time, and because it is so easy to back and fix it if there is a bit of a gap somewhere; just add a bit of water, some hot air, and press things into position. Easy cheesy! Titebond should work much the same.

I use Weld-on for celluloid plastic bindings, don't know how it works on other plastics (they say Botaron got its name because that't the only way you can make it stay in place...)
Author:  gosport [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Thanks for the advice.

I am using wood bindings. My binding channel is a little wide in some spots where there will be a small gap (around the waist) and I was wondering If I could use ca and sawdust to fill the gaps after the titebond has set.
Author:  Rod True [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I too have switched back to fish glue after using CA for the past 6 guitars.

Where is the gap? On the side or the top?
Author:  gosport [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Mainly on the sides. There may be some small gaps on the top and the back around the waist.
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
If the line between the gap (binding/side) is dark than CA and dust is good, but if it's light colored wood than you'll want to use wood glue and dust. CA really can darken dust a fair bit. You can also use a lighter wood like mahogany when filling gaps in a darker wood like rosewood or cocobolo as long as the shade is similar. Like everything, test on scrap if you can.
Author:  Michael Smith [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I usually do a fairly complicated binding scheme. The only way I have been about to do it is with the thin CA. I install the bindings quickly with a few pieces of tape then since I'm doing ukuleles wrap it tightly with 1/8" shock cord I bought on ebay in a hundred foot roll. If I were building guitars I would use 3/16" or even 1/4" shock cord. The shock cord has really nice spring back and it can be somewhat adjusted by how far you stretch it. The nylon outer of the shock cord keeps the rubber insides away from the CA. If you really need some pull make a few wraps in the same place.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Wait a minute, you have not installed the bindings yet, but you can tell there will be gaps? I get the feeling something is not right here, the fit between the bindings / purflings and their respective ledges should be very tight. When I mentioned water based glues expanding the wood ever so slightly for a better fit, I did not intend to suggest it would fix sloppy workmanship. Everything must be very consistent in width, height and along its length, and I also knock the edge off the binding where it meets the inside corner, or things will not look good. You may still need to fix some inconsistencies, but those should be very small, I never like to add filler of any sort for this.
Author:  wbergman [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
You really should try to resolve what is causing the gaps before you glue.

I did have a guitar years ago where I used a walnut binding on a spruce top, with no purflings. There were gaps afterwards, but fortunately the gaps were not filled with glue. I generated some spruce sawdust, put white glue in the gaps, and then covered with the sawdust and worked it in some. After drying and sanding, I could not even find where the gaps had been. I was quite surprised how well that worked. The old standard method of installing prefabricated rosettes is to generate sawdust from the top immediately after gluing the rosette with white glue. The sawdust fills the gaps and dries with the rosette.

If you mix CA with spruce sawdust, I expect it will darken, same as if you get it on solid wood.
Author:  cphanna [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Arnt is giving you excellent advice. Far better to try to resolve the gap issue before gluing. It's difficult to offer suggestions without seeing a picture of your problem. If the channel, when viewed from the top, is wider in some places than others, you can make it uniform all around and then add a contrasting veneer or purfling strip to make the binding thicker and fill the ledge. If the channel, viewed from the side, is deeper in some places than others, you can add a contrasting strip to make your binding taller. Or you could use thicker, taller (wider) binding strips. If it's an issue of bending (kinks or whatever) in the binding, then do some patient, corrective bending. This last problem is something I struggled with on my first wood-bound instrument.
Author:  gosport [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
oops_sign I have already glued the binding on. I did it before I went to bed last night. There are not any gaps in the top but there are some gaps on the sides around the waist. I will upload a picture so mabe you can see what it looks like.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I think it's a big advantage to use Hot hide glue for this. If you have a good contact, the bindings is sucked in place and it results in a really clean and tight joint. If there's a gap... drop some hot water with a pipette, play a bit with the binding to make it move, put a drop of glue, tape it again, and voilà.
Author:  DannyV [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
Rod True wrote:
I too have switched back to fish glue after using CA for the past 6 guitars.

Where is the gap? On the side or the top?
Arnt Rian wrote:
I used the "tape on bindings dry, wick in CA glue"-method for a while, but I have gone back to water based glue. One reason is the brittleness of the CA glue line, and the possible prospect of the glue wicking in where you don't want it, but I find that it is easier to get a better fit this way, probably in some part thanks to the moisture in the glue expanding the wood in the channel and the appointments. I like to use fish glue as it has a long open time, and because it is so easy to back and fix it if there is a bit of a gap somewhere; just add a bit of water, some hot air, and press things into position. Easy cheesy! Titebond should work much the same.

I use Weld-on for celluloid plastic bindings, don't know how it works on other plastics (they say Botaron got its name because that't the only way you can make it stay in place...)


I can see the appeal of using water based glues for binding. Better gap filling. Also, twice I have had to route off and redo a binding and I was surprised at some of the large sections that came off in tact. Even though I had wicked in all around after I removed the tape. Both times they had very poor glue contact. It makes one wonder, we know a guitar sounds pretty crappy tapped, pre binding. I wonder how a poorly bound guitar sounds compared to a well done binding job with good contact all the way around?

It seems to me the biggest advantage of using CA is if you are doing mitres, especially if you are doing wedge and back strip. Are you finding ways around doing mitres with WB glue? I guess you could CA the mitres and carry on from there. AND what about not having the instant gratification of CA. How do you get use to that? :lol:

Best of the Season,
Danny
Author:  DannyV [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
gosport wrote:
oops_sign I have already glued the binding on. I did it before I went to bed last night. There are not any gaps in the top but there are some gaps on the sides around the waist. I will upload a picture so mabe you can see what it looks like.

That's fixable glue and sawdust BUT you really want to try to not end up with gaps like that. What Arnt said about taking down the inside ledge with a scraper is important. When I'm applying tape I alternate the direction that I apply it. One from the top down and one from the side up. I find it helps close things up.

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glue for binding
I tape mine in place tightly every inch or so and use ca. Since I use KTM 9 finish I paint the top for an inch or two around the binding channel first. I don't do the sides or back unless they are very light wood. I try to paint the endgrain portion of the top that shows in the binding chanel.

As far as the gap goes I'd shave some pieces of wood from the cutoff stock, glue them with LMI white luthiers glue (it dries clear, ca doesn't) and press them into the openings. Once it is dry shave of the extra and you'll never see the gaps.

If you use sawdust it will be visible

Good Luck
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