Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

shading
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34312		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  weslewis [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  shading
I have a L-00 that has been pore filled, z poxy, and has 3 coats of dewaxed shellac sprayed on it, I would like to try to add some shading to the top and was looking for some advise, I will be using EM 6000 , How much stain should be added to what quanitity of Lacquer for the shade???
any tips would be appreciated...
Author:  woody b [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Get a piece of spruce (if the top's spruce) and prepare it same as the guitar. Then experiment on the spurce. Mark it off in squares and use different mixes in each square. That way you'll know exactly what you're getting.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
As Woody says. And if you expirement in terms of so many "drops" per oz. of lacquer, you'll be able to accurately scale up when ready to spray. Intensity will depend on the effect you're after (& always better to be a bit weak than too strong).
Author:  Freeman [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
I'll just add my recent experience. I am building a Les Paul clone and wanted to try to emulate the classic 59 burst on a beautifully figured maple top - amber center fading to a medium brown at the edge, but not dark like a tobacco burst. I did two wipe coats of StewMac amber stain, two drops to about 4 oz of alcohol to stain the wood and pop the grain. A wash coat of finish to seal it (I'm using KTM-9). I then mixed two drops of amber in 8 oz of KTM and shot two coats on the entire top - that gave a nice vintage amber look. Next I put one drop of SM brown stain in what was left of the KTM (lets say about 7 oz) and sprayed a burst from about 6 inch from the edge. Two more drops and a coat about 4 inch from the edge, then two more and about 2 inches, followed by a couple more a one inch. Now I'm down to about 4 oz of fairly dark finish, but it still was pretty transparent when sprayed - ie you can see the flame all the way to the edge of the top.

That last 4 oz was enough to put two coats on the back and sides (after pore fill and two coats of brown stain into the mahogany) - that carries the color of the burst over to the sides and back, yet the grain of the mahogany is still very visible.

but as the others advise, I also had a piece of the maple that I sprayed each time to check.
Author:  CharlieT [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Freeman wrote:
I'll just add my recent experience. I am building a Les Paul clone and wanted to try to emulate the classic 59 burst on a beautifully figured maple top - amber center fading to a medium brown at the edge, but not dark like a tobacco burst. I did two wipe coats of StewMac amber stain, two drops to about 4 oz of alcohol to stain the wood and pop the grain. A wash coat of finish to seal it (I'm using KTM-9). I then mixed two drops of amber in 8 oz of KTM and shot two coats on the entire top - that gave a nice vintage amber look. Next I put one drop of SM brown stain in what was left of the KTM (lets say about 7 oz) and sprayed a burst from about 6 inch from the edge. Two more drops and a coat about 4 inch from the edge, then two more and about 2 inches, followed by a couple more a one inch. Now I'm down to about 4 oz of fairly dark finish, but it still was pretty transparent when sprayed - ie you can see the flame all the way to the edge of the top.

That last 4 oz was enough to put two coats on the back and sides (after pore fill and two coats of brown stain into the mahogany) - that carries the color of the burst over to the sides and back, yet the grain of the mahogany is still very visible.

but as the others advise, I also had a piece of the maple that I sprayed each time to check.


Sounds nice, Freeman. Would love to see some photos of [:Y:]! :mrgreen:
Author:  weslewis [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
how dark was the amber stain???? thought I would try 2 drops of amber to 8oz as well, in fact about to do that right now ...
Author:  Freeman [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
weslewis wrote:
how dark was the amber stain???? thought I would try 2 drops of amber to 8oz as well, in fact about to do that right now ...



I have some pictures of the work in progress that I could post tonight. Of course the term "drop" isn't very well defined, but I would say that will be a fairly light amber that will look like a mildly aged top. Two coats of that on top of a couple of thin wiped coats directly to the wood gave what I think of as the "normal" center of a typical Gibson burst.

Dan Erlewine's book on guitar finishing (StewMac) has some charts showing different stains mixed at a variety of concentrations - that might be handy - but it is really intended for people doing electric colors.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
There are a lot of approaches to "amber". Some get there with just orange shellac. 2 drops / 8oz is pretty weak (....my normal "clearcoat" for EM6000 is 1 drop amber/ 8 oz!).
FWIW, this is my current favorite amber.... 5 amber/ 2 cherry red per OUNCE lacquer.
Author:  Freeman [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
OK, here are a couple of quick pictures. First, the top with stain directly into the wood, two coats, the first sanded almost to white which leave the flame highlighted

Image

Now two coats of amber in the middle (two drops) and the first of the burst (one or two drops of brown)

Image

A couple more drops of brown and working the burst to the sides

Image

I don't have any pictures yet of the gloss coats, but the flame did come out nicely. One thing to remember is that I'm a total novice at this and just kind of feeling my way along. However I'm pretty happy with the way it came out.
Author:  weslewis [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Looks good...2 drops per 8 oz is weak...the shellac is darker!!! I am still experimenting ....
Author:  CharlieT [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Thanks for the photo, Freeman. That really turned out nice! [:Y:]
Author:  Ken C [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Wes, How much shading do you want? I just strung up a curly koa L-OO over the weekend that I finished in a burst using with EM1000 and EM6000. I shot a couple of coats of clear EM6000. For the color, I mixed Transtint dyes in EM1000. The orange was a mix of Honey Amber and Bright Red. The brown is Dark Mission Brown. I can provide more details if this is similar to what you are after.

Ken
Attachment:
Pair-1.jpg
Author:  weslewis [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Ken that is exactly what I am looking for!!! bliss
Author:  Ken C [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Wes,

Bursting with Target products is pretty easy. I shot a couple of coats of clear then masked over everything that I didn't want color on. I then shot another coat of clear just to make sure I had a good seal around the mask. I use EM1000 as a color carrier when I want dense colors as it behaves better with high concentrations of tint. I don't have exact measurements, but I probably used 3oz to 4oz of EM1000 with a couple of squirts (not drops) of Dark Mission Brown. I wanted the EM1000 very dark, so I didn't have to shoot a lot of coats to get the color.

I have found to successfully get the color down, it needs to go on very light, almost drying the instant it hits the surface. So I dial back the fluid flow on my gun quite a bit. With the finish going on very dry, it will leave a rough texture, but it will allow you to build up the color very gradually and with a lot of control. I lay down a light coat around the perimeter and keep working my way around with each pass resulting in a darker brown. I will then start working my way slowly towards the center of the guitar, making fewer passes the further in I go. I shot this burst in two sessions separated by 45 mintues or so.

Resist the temptation to lay down a heavy coat with the color as the heavier you put it down, the more uneven it will appear. I found that heavy coats of dark tinted EM6000 or EM1000 appear spotty. If you have a light tint like amber or the orange I shot, you can lay that down as you would your lacquer, 2 to 3 mils thick. But you have to really dial back the fluid flow once you start laying down the burst.

Once I was happy with the burst, I removed the mask, and covered the whole thing with numerous coats of clear. I wouldn't even think of leveling the burst until you 6 to 8 coats of clear on top, otherwise you risk sanding into the burst. When shooting the clear, I would shoot the low areas that I had masked first, then go back and shoot lacquer over the entire area. This allowed me to build up a bit more lacquer in the low spots.

Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions.

Ken
Author:  weslewis [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Thanks....very informative...what kind of gun are you using to spray the tint??? a detail gun or an air brush???
Author:  Ken C [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
weslewis wrote:
Thanks....very informative...what kind of gun are you using to spray the tint??? a detail gun or an air brush???


I have an Asturo Eco/s HVLP gun I use for the lacquer clear coats and burst. I simply narrow the spray pattern when shooting the burst.

Ken
Author:  nickton [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
is it tricky to mask off the bindings? I always wondered about that. Also how do you spray the sides without getting color on bindings. :?:
Author:  Ken C [ Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
I use the 1/8" masking tape available at paint supply stores. You can work that stuff around the waist and bouts pretty easily. I then use the wider tape and will completely mask off the sides. If I do get color on the bindings, it is easy to scrape off with a razor blade. Not as tricky you might be thinking.

Ken

Attachment:
Waist-1.jpg
Author:  weslewis [ Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
How about the rosette?? did you mask that or just avoid it??? also how many coats of clear are you shooting??? I am finishing my 5th , a dred without a burst, with em 6000 now. In the past on two guitars I spryaed 15 coats of clear and ended up getting a sand thru on one of them...possibly to agressive sanding , and then searched the forum and found some are shooting 20 plus coats which I did on the last one and had no problems...So I decided to actually measure this one by taping a small piece of wood on the soundhole plug and actally measuing the thickness as I lay down the coats, after 10 coats ,and granted I am still experimenting with the spray pattern trying to get as clean coat as possible without too much orange peel the thickness is .0045...with a target of .006 to .007 after leveling...I know some here are using 12 to 15 coats?? wondering what your experience is on this or if anyone else would like to check in on this??????
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
Wes, 6-7 AFTER leveling might be a lot.
Anyway, an easy way to keep track is, instead of wood, use acetate (from food packaging) exposed above your soundhole plug. Lacquer will just chip off (if you bend it) & you can measure.
Author:  Ken C [ Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
If you spray 2 mil coats, they are about 30% solids, so you would end up with a film of .6 mils per coat. Lay down 10 coats and you will have about 6 mils or 0.006" of finish prior to any leveling.

Definitely mask the rosette.

Ken
Author:  weslewis [ Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: shading
15 coats got me .006 to .007... which does seem to be plenty thick..so after leveling should be .004 or so...I have been dialing up my gun and getting much better coats per pass....
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/