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What type of glue for plates?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34036		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  crazicarl [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  What type of glue for plates?
I know I've been asking some pretty elementary questions, but I'm really grateful to you guys for stepping up and sharing your knowledge so graciously. But, I'm afraid I have another question . . .

What kind of glue should I be using? I used Titebond 1 on the scarf joint and gluing the heel block to the neck blank. I'm about to glue my jointed soundboard and I'm wondering if Titebond 1 is what I should be using. Thoughts?

Thanks, guys.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
You can certainly use Titebond 1 for the entire guitar, although most people would choose other glues for specific or even general tasks. I like the DVD's of Bob Bennedetto building an archtop, and he uses Titebond for the entire instrument.

Titebond is fine for the soundboard joint. You can use fish glue, which approximates hide glue better but has the benefit (or possibly downside, once you are used to working fast) of a long open time in comparison to hide glue. Hide glue itself really isn't that hard to get used to, you just have to go at the process of putting on the glue and fitting the joint with deliberate speed. (Not haste, but also not lollygagging). LMI white is good too.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I think original titebond would be a good choice for most of the bonding on a first instrument, or the LMI white glue as Jim mentioned above too.
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
When 2 Jims agree, believe it.
Use your Titebond until the bottle is dry.
Author:  Jim_H [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I use LMI white for soundboard joints... if I don't have any on hand I'll go for the titebond.
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Titebond should be fine.

I use hot hide glue, mainly for repairability incase the seams ever separate. I use the tape method of joining to keep the glue from squeezing out on the face side and to get the joint together quickly, so speed is not an issue. Also put weights on it and pressure from the sides to squeeze it together tighter than just the tape gets it
Author:  Phillip Patton [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Has anyone tried the Gorilla white glue?
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Fish glue is another good option.
Author:  crazicarl [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Thanks for the replies, guys.

One thing popped out at me--the tape method? Are you running a line of, say, blue tape, down the length of the show side of the plates and then using it like a hinge? I can see how that would be really great to keep the glue off the soundboard. If I'm picturing that right, let me know, as I will do that this weekend when I--hopefully--make time to glue that joint up.

Also, a little off topic, oops_sign but should I be worried when one of my plates has a slight bow to it and the other is flat? They've been in my garage and so no humidity control. Sitka Spruce plates.
Author:  rasmus [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I used titebond original on my 2 last guitars and I got surprisingly good joint. On redwood I have to draw a line in the centre to find the glue line. It's impossible to find the glue line even with close inspection.

On my first build I used white glue. The joint was more visible than with titebond.
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
crazicarl wrote:
Are you running a line of, say, blue tape, down the length of the show side of the plates and then using it like a hinge?

Yup, that's the one. Also put a few strips across, just to be sure the center strip doesn't peel off.

Quote:
Also, a little off topic, oops_sign but should I be worried when one of my plates has a slight bow to it and the other is flat? They've been in my garage and so no humidity control. Sitka Spruce plates.

No worries. As long as you can still get it jointed, glued, and thicknessed, the braces will hold it in the correct shape in the end.

But do make sure you keep it in decently stable humidity for a day or whatever before gluing any braces, and until the box is closed up. I've heard many stories of braced plates going concave due to humidity issues, although personally I've let them sit loose for months with no issue idunno But I do always make sure the humidity is below 50%, and preferably below 40% when gluing braces, and set them so they get air circulation on both sides.
Author:  york [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Confused about Gorilla Wood Glue. According to the specs I have seen, isn't it a "type 2", water resistant glue like Titebond II? It has been my understanding that Titebond II (and III) is not recommended for instrument making while the original Titebond is fine. Doesn't that, then make Gorilla suspect? Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks....
Author:  cphanna [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Adam, I would add one precautionary comment: Make sure your Titebond I is always fresh. I can only get one size bottle at my local hardware store. It doesn't take much glue to build a guitar, and I am a hobby builder without lots of production moving through my shop. Consequently, I always seem to have a half or two thirds of a bottle of glue left after a project. I use this stuff on jigs, fixtures and other general projects. However, if I'm starting a new instrument and my glue is more than a few months old, I spring for a fresh bottle. The older glue starts to smell funky after a while and that's when I quit using it on fine work. Maybe I'm being hyper-cautious, but that's what I do. Seems like I always have a couple of partial bottles of glue on the shelf, too.....oh well.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
It might also be worth mentioning that LMI is a little less forgiving with respect to open time compared to ordinary yellow (Titebond) glue. At least in my experience...
Author:  york [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I think the LMI definitely has a shorter open time than Titebond, not always an advantage. It also seems to dry harder and clear which I like.
Author:  crazicarl [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
All good stuff, guys, thanks. My Titebond is pretty new . . . I think three weeks old, so I don't imagine a problem there. Plus, I just read a really good article about how to tell when good glue goes bad . . . Woodcraft's mag, I think. Or American Woodworker, whatever, can't remember.

Anyway, thanks again, this gives me all the confidence I need to tackle my glue up this weekend. I am giddy just thinking about it. bliss
Author:  york [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Remember that more important than when you bought it is when it was made. Some places have the glue on the shelf for quite a while. I always check the code at the store and get the freshest bottle I can if there is a choice and then clearly write the manufacture date on the bottle when I get home and also the purchase date and where I got it. This is from fretsnet:

Quote:
For those who don't know yet, this from Titebond:

We have had two lot numbering systems for the wood glues. The old one was:

The first digit represents the last digit of the year of manufacture. The second digit is a letter that indicates the month. We use the

letters A through M, excluding the letter I. The third digit is a number. It represents the manufacturing division the product was made

for. The next four numbers represent the internal lot or batch number. That is followed by a decimal point and two numbers which

represent the day of manufacture.

Example:

6L12455.23 – This material was manufactured on November 23rd of 2006.

In March of 2009, we switched to the new lot numbering system. The new one is:

The first digit represents A for America (made in), the second digit is the last digit of the year of manufacture, the third and fourth digits

represent the month, the fifth and sixth digits represent the day of the month and the last four digits represent the lot number.

Example:

A904270023 – This material was manufactured on April 27, 2009
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
york wrote:
Remember that more important than when you bought it is when it was made. Some places have the glue on the shelf for quite a while. I always check the code at the store and get the freshest bottle I can if there is a choice and then clearly write the manufacture date on the bottle when I get home and also the purchase date and where I got it. This is from fretsnet:

Quote:
For those who don't know yet, this from Titebond:

We have had two lot numbering systems for the wood glues. The old one was:

The first digit represents the last digit of the year of manufacture. The second digit is a letter that indicates the month. We use the

letters A through M, excluding the letter I. The third digit is a number. It represents the manufacturing division the product was made

for. The next four numbers represent the internal lot or batch number. That is followed by a decimal point and two numbers which

represent the day of manufacture.

Example:

6L12455.23 – This material was manufactured on November 23rd of 2006.

In March of 2009, we switched to the new lot numbering system. The new one is:

The first digit represents A for America (made in), the second digit is the last digit of the year of manufacture, the third and fourth digits

represent the month, the fifth and sixth digits represent the day of the month and the last four digits represent the lot number.

Example:

A904270023 – This material was manufactured on April 27, 2009


There is a toll-free number on the bottle you can call if you can't remember this. Franklin has excellent Customer Service.
Author:  Bob Matthews [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Sorry to be brief, but, fish glue for me.
Author:  John Arnold [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I used Titebond original on my first 60 guitars. I generally buy it in the 8 ounce bottles. Here is my take on the shelf life:
My routine has been to retire it from lutherie after a year, and I have had no problems. By storing it in my shop where the humidity and temperature are very stable, I have found that Titebond will last well past that date.
Outside of fresh HHG, the most invisible top seams I have produced have been with Titebond.
Author:  woody b [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I use HHG, but I believe as long as a decent commonly used glue is used an invisible joint has more to do with the joint than the glue.

I've read of titebond joints sinking under some (waterborne?) finishes. I don't use titebond, or waterborne finishes so I'm not commenting from actual experience.

From LMI's website, reguarding KTM9 and titebond.
Quote:
Note: Some builders have noticed sinking around glue joints where Tite-bond™ is used. For this reason it is highly recommended that you use a harder glue, such as our FG instrument makers glue. It is also okay to use hide glue (FGH) or cyanoacrylate glues (FGHO).
Author:  Tim L [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
Unless I am misreading the specs, it looks like the Gorilla White does not come apart easily with heat and is water resistant. Specifically says that joined parts can not be taken apart without damaging the surfaces. Maybe OK for plates but not too good for places you may have to go again. Has anyone tried to disassemble a joint where this glue has been used?
I use the LMI white, buy new every 6 months, and store in the fridge when not using. HHG for braces, bridge and neck joint.

Tim
Author:  york [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
That's what I thought about Gorilla wood glue. It is comparable to Titebond II. I know some builders who use Titebond II for the whole guitar and swear by it. But that seems to go against what most people advise and the common wisdom.
Author:  Ken McKay [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What type of glue for plates?
I use titebond for the linings sometimes but to connect braces and plates I use UF glue. Weldwood makes one called plastic resin glue and is available at most hardware stores. It dries hard like hide glue and is easy to mix. It is good stuff, equal to hide glue IMO, although not reversible.

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