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| Fanned Fret question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34018 |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fanned Fret question |
I'm getting ahead of myself here thinking about future builds. However, I've been planning on building a fanned fret for quite some time. It's actually a big reason that I got into this in the first place since I figured I could use the $7K it would have cost me to buy it to acquire luthier tools and materials, which I did. I have the handy LMI fret slotting jig which is very precise for standard scales. I'm just wondering how some of you guys approach the problems that a fanned fret multi-scale build presents in order to achieve the desired level of precision necessary for correct intonation. Joey |
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| Author: | Lavrov Guitars [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Mike Doolin explains it pretty well how he does his in this article http://www.doolinguitars.com/articles/novax/ |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Excellent thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. If anyone has any other method feel free to chime in. |
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| Author: | Mike Lindstrom [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
That's basically what I did to only I did it in autocad, printed it out, and glued it to the fretboard for cutting. However, the Padma said something different (here? another forum?) If I understood him, he said to lay out the nut and saddle so it looks good. Extend the lines out until they cross, and then make all your frets extend radially through that point. I haven't been able to convince my self that that makes sense, but when I extended my drawing out, all the fret lines didn't cross in a point, but they were in the neighborhood. Probably more accurately than I can reliably saw anyways. If I were going to do a bunch of them, I'd probably build a jig of some sort, but for this one off experiment, this seemed to work fine. Although, it's not done yet. We'll see how it sounds soon, I hope. Mike |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I'm leaning towards building a jig or two for them (one baritone), I plan on building several for myself. I hate changing tunings all the time and breaking strings because of it. I'm not a big fan of cutting metal unless I have to. Anyone know where to get a good jig build with CNC at a decent rate? |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I've been having more trouble figuring out the headstock angle(s) for my upcoming/sort of in progress fan fret build. Plan for the fretboard is, draw out the string paths on the board, lay straightedge along low E and mark out the fret positions for the longer scale, lay straightedge along the high E and mark fret positions for shorter scale, clamp a guideblock connecting the dots of each fret, and saw. Make sure you lay out the scales along the tapered string paths. I made a picture a while back, and marking fret positions along parallel lines and then tapering the board results in badness. |
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| Author: | Ziegenfuss [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Have the FB CNC'd...  No seriously, I CNC my fanned fret stuff. All the jigs just seemed so complicated, so when I never did any fanned fret work until I go the CNC. If you need any help, just let me know. I generally just need the low and high E scale lengths, and then go from there! Stephen |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Ziegenfuss wrote: Have the FB CNC'd... No seriously, I CNC my fanned fret stuff. All the jigs just seemed so complicated, so when I never did any fanned fret work until I go the CNC. If you need any help, just let me know. I generally just need the low and high E scale lengths, and then go from there! Stephen That would be great. I plan on adding CNC one day, just not any time in the immediate future. Still paying off a bunch of other stuff. But yeah I plan on starting with a 27.7 to 25.5 and going from there. |
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| Author: | lactose [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I lack experience on a lot of things but I have made a bunch of fanned fretboards (and two reverse fanned by request). Of course the main rule is once you get your two scales chosen, you need the fret distances to be accurate. But here are a couple other things to think about: -do you want to rotate the whole set so that the low F bar chord is easier to play (less fan at nut, more at bridge) -how much spread do you want ? I use 1.5 inches, like my Novax necks. -are you picky about where the perpendicular fret is located ? I am not, but some people want it on the 7th fret or 12th or something. -are you comfortable tapping in frets ? When you start rotating frets, the effective radius changes which means your fret press caul is probably not going to do the job. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
If you are going to be measuring stuff out, search the web for Fretfind .. I use it for all my mulitscales, you can print it out, and then glue it on the fingerboard. I set it up as a left handed FB, then glue it on the back of the tapered blank, and have hairline curser jig to slot the board on the table saw. The program lets you set the nut string spacing, the saddle spread, the offset of the string from the fingerboard edge (so that the scales used are under strings, not the fb edge), and where the straight fret/scale alignment is - it can be anywhere on the FB, even between frets as it is calulated using a percentage of the FB length. You can see what the FB will look like before you print, and then save the printout in PDF ofr future repaet builds. |
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| Author: | rasmus [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I just finished cutting the fret slots on my first fanned fret fingerboard. I didn't use very high tech approach on it. I marked down the fingerboard outline (width at the nut and at 12. fret). After that I marked down 630mm mensure fret positions on one side and 660mm mensure on other. I decided to fan the bridge and the nut exactly the same amount. Using small ruler I conncted fret positions from one side to another and scribed the line with a small knife for the saw to not slip. I don't know how good this method is. I can try it out in couple of months when I've finished the guitar. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I went with the CNC route as this is my 1st Fan fret, I decided that there was enough places to screw up without adding the frets. I got a CNC board from Bryan Galloup and decided to use 27" 25" scales as he already had a tool path program for these scales. I strung the guitar yesterday and other than fine tuning the setup and intonation it came out real good. 
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| Author: | Billy T [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Beautiful work Fred! |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Hey Fred, Where are you finding those oversize saddle blanks? I like to use FWI but I may go back to regular bone if I can find oversized ones like the ones you are using at a decent price. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I got the saddle 3/16 blanks from the soon to be owner, forum member Paul Murphy at Bluefish music in Plymouth Mi. he supplied most of the hardware, the bridge blank and the nut and saddle bone. I don't think they are hard to come by in 3/16 but the length could have been just a little longer than what he had in his stock. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Allied and LMI both have wide saddle blanks for ~$3.50. Heck of a lot cheaper than FWI I do want to try FWI sometime just for the novelty, but plain ol' cow bone seems to be about ideal as far as saddle material goes. Just cause it's a cheap byproduct of the meat industry doesn't mean it's inferior to the rare materials
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
DennisK wrote: Allied and LMI both have wide saddle blanks for ~$3.50. Heck of a lot cheaper than FWI I do want to try FWI sometime just for the novelty, but plain ol' cow bone seems to be about ideal as far as saddle material goes. Just cause it's a cheap byproduct of the meat industry doesn't mean it's inferior to the rare materials I hear ya there. If I was selling instruments I would definitely go with bone. However, I got into building to satisfy my own ridiculous need to own numerous guitars at a fraction of the price it would cost to have each one built. I'd like about 10 of my own and I don't have $40,000-50,000K laying around.  Hahaha. Plus I've loved building so far. Can't wait to actually have a couple instruments to be proud of!FWI is great for your personal guitars. I've found a supplier that offers a much better rate than anyone else I've been able to find (1/2 or better). Best of all you can't poach a Walrus that has been dead for at least 10,000 years! For that reason I prefer it to elephant ivory. Elephant ivory definitely looks best on the elephant. |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
I totally get the whole fan fret thing, but there is one thing which bugs me. As far as I understand it, builders slant the nut and the saddle to align with the offset frets. Now, it would seem to me to be more appropriate, after the alignment of the nut and saddle had been determined, if the breakover point for each individual string on the nut and the saddle were perpendicular to the string instead of being at a slant. I realize that this would be a considerable amount of extra work, but it just disturbs me to think that the breakover points on the nut and saddle were anything other than 90 degrees... In case I haven't made myself clear, what I envisage is a kind of stepped surface, like a stepladder, both on nut and saddle, so that the strings break over a surface perpendicular to the string rather than at a slant. It would probably necessitate using a thicker saddle (and possibly nut as well) than normal to achieve this, but this would be no bad thing IMO ... |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
murrmac wrote: . . . what I envisage is a kind of stepped surface, like a stepladder, both on nut and saddle, so that the strings break over a surface perpendicular to the string rather than at a slant. . . You could use a zero fret (break angle over any other fretted note will be at an angle anyway) and a normal nut. For the saddle, you could use a thicker saddle and file in your intonation perpendicular to each string. That said, I'm not too sure it makes much difference. |
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| Author: | Lavrov Guitars [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
So how does this affect the bracing? Does it affect it much? Are any modifications required? |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
The amount of slant of the nut is not an issue, and the saddle is sort of stepped with the area the string is on cut perpendicular to the string. The X brace is rotated and the angle is tightened up a little so the bass side of the bridge isl over the leg of the X. There are pictures of the inside on my web site and I included a picture in the Pictures of my fan fret thread on the forum |
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| Author: | J.F. Custom [ Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fanned Fret question |
Hi all. Here is a Seven string Multi-Scale (fanned fret) build I did a couple of years ago. Attachment: JFCustom_Multiscale2.jpg It had a 27" - 25" scale spread, with the parallel fret at the 9th. The parallel fret was only determined by ergonomics - what felt natural and comfortable to my hand, up and down the neck with a fairly balanced nut and saddle angle. The scales were chosen based on what scale I like on an electric for the high e (25"), increased to the longer 27" for the seventh string low B; thereby gradually providing a more appropriate scale length for the low strings. Any further spread in scales would have made it a little uncomfortable to play I feel. The design of the headstock also incorporated a straight string pull to the tuners, giving the strings a great 'feel' and tuning stability. Attachment: JFCustom_Multiscale_whole.jpg This guitar was featured in a 3 part 'how to' article series in Australian Wood Review - our equivalent I guess to your "Fine Woodworking" magazine. The whole build from start to finish was covered there. If CNC is available or within budget to you, it is the most reliable way to create such a fretboard. However to make this aspect more accessible to readers, I came up with a very simple jig to aid in cutting the fret slots that can be used for any scale combination; the accuracy in use is governed by you though - no hard template. You could use a pencil and mark out your scale lengths for each outer string using your horizontal fret as the start point. I used the computer however to generate the fret layout and printed this. As others mentioned, if you don't have access to any CAD type software, you can use fretfind online for free here - http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ Be aware also that your print out needs to be checked - different printers can have small discrepancies in their 100% scale accuracy so after printing, measure with a ruler to check all is well. If not, adjust the scale of the print until you get it right. Care also needs to be taken in sticking the paper to the fretboard blank. Paper can stretch so care is required and again, check prior to cutting any slots. This is the jig, very basic but it works, is quick and easy to use and adjust - and keeps your cut where you want it. Attachment: fret_slot_jig_2.jpg Attachment: fret_slot_jig_5.jpg I put a basic how-to on this jig on the ANZLF here - http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2094 And Australian Wood Review made a downloadable PDF of it you can get here free - http://www.woodreview.com.au/storyextras/ You just need to click the Issue 67 "Electric Guitar Fret Slotting Jig" to download. This PDF includes some dimensions for the one I made, but adjust to suit yourself, or improve as you see fit! Hope it's of interest to you. Jeremy. |
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