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Why am I so bad at binding??
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Author:  CGiles [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Why am I so bad at binding??
[uncle]

So far I've finished 4 guitars, each one light years better than the previous - except for binding.

I take that back, the first couple I wound up routing off the bindings and redoing them. At least now I can do a decent but not acceptable job in one shot. [headinwall]

I cut the channels with the StewMac TrueChannel jig and a Bosch Colt, measure the channels to make sure they're consistent all the way around, pre-bend the binding and purflings, and STILL get inconsistency so that when everything is scraped and sanded the binding width is not consistent all the way around. I've tried both CA and PVA with same results.

It's time to punt and come at this from a different angle, what are some of the steps/techniques you guys use when doing your binding?

~CHRIS
Author:  letseatpaste [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
I'm not an expert but I've experienced the same pain and have learned a couple things. My main problem was with gaps, though. The first things that come to mind are to:
a.) true up your sides before you rout the binding channels, no hills or valleys. At any point you ought to be able to hold up a straight edge to the side and not see any gaps.
b.) learn to touch up on a pipe to get a perfect fit so it doesn't take much pressure to hold it in place. That's probably more for preventing gaps.

I've also heard of guys actually making the channel just slightly bigger than the binding, and then sanding the sides to be flush with the binding instead of the other way around. Haven't tried that myself yet, but seems like that'd be a surefire way to maintain a consistent width.
Author:  Marcus [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
I can't offer any practical tips that have really worked for me yet.

I will say that my bindings actually got worse after my first guitar. I was probably on my 5th or 6th guitar before I started getting better. It was very frustrating. Just keep pushing, you will get better and better at it.
Author:  Quine [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Getting the sides flat top to back is key. Any cupping or ripple will show in the binding. On a typical 0.80" binding...just 0.010" off will show up.
One tip I learned here is to cut a shallow binding rabbet, then flatten the sides, then cut the final rabbet. Much easier to true up the sides without the top or back joints to sand through too.

Also, don't leave the bindings too proud of the surface. Too much sanding to get the bindings flush with the sides leaves a lot of room for problems. Same thing on the top/back side. If the binding is too tall for the rabbet then it can roll or twist when gluing & taping.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Once you can assure yourself that your binding channels are well and properly cut, that your bindings themselves are uniform in thickness and properly glued in place, all that remains is your finishing process. The bindings are so thin that any irregularities in sanding flush are dramatically revealed. Its really easy to sand just a little too much. And once you've done it, you're done for.
Author:  stan thomison [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Make sure your box in the cradle is squared. I use a long machine square at the neck, tail, lower bout and shoulders. Make sue the rims are squared to the cradle all around.

Once have the channels routed (and do this the same on all of your work) clean and dry seat the binding and purf.

I set the waist of the binding and purf first. Move it around until feels like setting square and solid to the box. After I have the waist set and taped, I go around the box as if setting it and tape it tight. Once I see all is going to fit the channels right, I start gluing at the waist. Up to you if you go to the neck or tail first. I normally do the tail so I can set miters for tail inlay and those joints are meeting right. I actually do the back first because I want the joins to be tight at both ends. On the top, you can be off at the neck some as the joins are cut out anyway.

Keep up and it becomes easier. Probably not bad at this, just need some experience at doing them.
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
A lot of good tips here but the one that made the biggest difference for me was Stans' tip, make sure the box is square to the table. Getting it squared when flipped on its top is hard, so I will split the difference end to end.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
I feel your pain. I pretty much suck at all things that make a guitar look pretty, binding is one of them. But I have gotten real good at hiding the mistakes ;)
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
After making sure that the sides are nice and flat before routing binding channels, I would recommend gluing binding and purflings separately. I rout my binding and purfling channels and shelves and get them even and correct. The pre-bent purflings and bindings should naturally fit in their respective channels with minimal pressure. After that I take the time to glue in the purflings, cut the miters, double check everything etc....Then I can glue in the bindings. This approach gives me several chances to make any corrections. I also use hide glue for all of this. From time to time my purflings are not correct in some way and many times I can merely heat with an iron and then re-tape, clamp, whatever to pull the purfling into place. The bindings are much simpler to install if all the purflings are already in place and looking good. This approach also has the benefit of being un-rushed. It takes a bit more time but it works for me. CA glue will tend to highlight flaws in the miters and such and make them look worse than they really are. Hide glue blends in better and is much more forgiving. Just as with finishing, the better prepared everything is the better the end result.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Stephen Boone wrote:
After making sure that the sides are nice and flat before routing binding channels, I would recommend gluing binding and purflings separately. I rout my binding and purfling channels and shelves and get them even and correct. The pre-bent purflings and bindings should naturally fit in their respective channels with minimal pressure. After that I take the time to glue in the purflings, cut the miters, double check everything etc....Then I can glue in the bindings.


+ 1 on Stephen's method. Also, make sure you check the depth of you channels at the waist. If shallow, scrape them to depth with a sharp cabinet scraper or a small scraper.
Author:  Bobc [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
In addition to all the good tips I use a single edge razor blade to chamfer the inside bottom edge of the binding before gluing so that that inside corner doesn't touch. Just takes a couple of minutes.
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Bobc wrote:
In addition to all the good tips I use a single edge razor blade to chamfer the inside bottom edge of the binding before gluing so that that inside corner doesn't touch. Just takes a couple of minutes.


GOOD ONE BOB! I do too and it really helps to set the binding more squarely in the channel.
Author:  Jim_H [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
+1 or 2 on the chamfering thing. It makes a huge difference.

I usually just knock the corner/edge off with some 120grit or whatever is handy.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
I bought this thing: http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/portattach.html a while back and it works amazingly. I can install my bindings flush with no scraping required. I use a down-spiral router bit.
As has been said, it is important to true up your sides before routing the binding channel.
What is your method for gluing in the bindings once everything has been cut?
The bindings need to be secured evenly and consistently around the perimeter as well. I use doubled low tack masking tape, nearly overlapping as I go around the perimeter. I start taping from the top, press the binding/purfling into the slot, stretch the tape down, and secure it to the side so that the tape stretches a little and "clamps" the binding into the edge.
It doesn't sound like your problem is gaps though, so this might not apply.
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Much of the evil in binding goes away with better prep work....

I think the first part is cutting/setup technique.... Depending on how you set up your router - you will either be cutting square to the top (With the router base laying on the top/back of the guitar) or square to the sides (with a jig holding the router against the side).... Square to the sides seems to produce a much better outcome for me.....

If you cut with the router base riding along the top/back of the guitar.... you will end up with cuts that get a lot wider or narrower depending on which part of the curve you ride over....

If you square it up with the sides - and you have ripples or bulges in your sides - then the cut will vary in width too....

After you are done routing - it's worth it to take a sharp chisel and clean out the fuzz from corner of the cut, then use a binding scrap to check the dimensions of your channel... It will help identify places you need to work on a bit more.... I use a carefully squared scrap of wood with sticky-back sandpaper stuck to it to do this clean up.... I also knock down all the little router-chatter bumps left over here and there..... Test fitting that scrap and working the sanding stick will eventually give you a very nice, even channel - which will give better looking bindings....

The last little bit of help is to make sure that the bindings are thin and short enough to conform to the 3-D shape all the way around a guitar body.... The rim isn't flat - it goes up and down as well as in and out... and the binding has to be flexible enough to conform to the up/down and in/out....

Thanks
Author:  SimonF [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Here is a list of things I do when binding my instruments (I never have any gaps in my binding/purfling).

1) Carefully sand the sides with a flat sanding block and do the same thing with the top and back. The surfaces must be perfect especially at the headblock/upper bout. You don't want to unevenly sand the sides after the binding goes in -- so it should be perfect before your route your channels.

2) I break the inner bottom edge of the binding so that it doesn't catch in the channel. I also sand a slight angle on the bottom of the binding so that it presses snugly in the channel.

3) I use CA glue to do my binding and shellac the channel beforehand.

4) I install side purflings first and tack them in place at the ends and at a few places along the body.

5) I use a gramil to score the soundboard purfling. This is important in achieving a crisp, clean edge/transition from soundboard to purfling.

6) I completely tape my binding and then use thin CA glue. I also use a bar clamp with waist cauls to push in the binding at the waist.

7) For the Florentine, one tricky part is getting the back binding to sit flush in the binding channel. What I do is put adhesive sandpaper on the back near the cutaway and take binding with extra height and sand the bottom of the binding. This puts the perfect shape on the bottom of your binding to allow it to seat perfectly in the channel.
Author:  CGiles [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
wow7-eyes

Ask and ye shall receive.

Thank you guys, I think I'll rout off this last attempt and give it another whirl with these suggestions.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
One thing I did is go with thinner and narrower bindings.
I think 060" x 3/16".
Still ain't perfect, but getting better,
and I like the look!
Chamfering, and dry run also.
You should see my first attempt with maple on maple and spruce! :oops:
Author:  Nils [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
I've had good luck doing bindings for the most part. I use titebond and masking tape to hold it in place as it dries.
When I glue it up I always make sure I have a set way I'm going to do it...and I use borderline excessive amounts of glue which I let squeeze out and go everywhere. I also tape it in place as tight as possible. In the end, its always a super pain to clean up..but its worked well.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Nils wrote:
I've had good luck doing bindings for the most part. I use titebond and masking tape to hold it in place as it dries.
When I glue it up I always make sure I have a set way I'm going to do it...and I use borderline excessive amounts of glue which I let squeeze out and go everywhere. I also tape it in place as tight as possible. In the end, its always a super pain to clean up..but its worked well.

Kind of what I do too. As I tape up I use a very damp rag and pinch the whole edge and mop up the excess glue. Once taped up I rope it just to get it real tight. I think on my next built I will shellac the edges, not the glue joint of course, but the surrounding area and maybe that will make clean up a lot faster.
Author:  mhammond [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Something that has helped my binding troubles:

All of the above tips are excellent and I use them all first.

Then:

I went down to the truck tire place and got an old innertube (a big one). After cutting it into one 3/4" continuous strip (spiral cut) no binding will ever cause me grief again! Wrapping the instrument 4 separate times is kind of a pain but perfect bindings are worth it...

When in doubt just FORCE it! :D

Mikey
Author:  Hupaand [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
It takes more than 4. I don't know how many more, I'm not there yet, but more than 4.
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why am I so bad at binding??
Binding with plastic is a bit different than with wood . Keep the binding so that you sand the sides to meet your binding and as other have mentioned break the inside corner . Here is my binding technique. Tops are easier than backs as the radius and wedge do cause some funny gyrations on the wood binding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lan2pKWE1Do
Set up is key and you have to take time to do that. Often on the back even with the jig you may have to reset for the upper bout area . I admit I never use CA good old duco for me but you use what you feel comfortable with .
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