David, It's the first time I see 12 holes used this way... interesting.
Edit: Oh. That's 18.
| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| 12 and 18 holes bridges http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=34003 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I'm going with a 12 hole bridge for the classical #1. I first drawn the holes at 3.5mm (~9/64th) from the bottom, after checking some traditional plans. After, I've been told that a 12 hole bridge increase the angle of the string before the saddle, 'cause the string go directly from the hole instead of from the tie, what is logic. So here's me first question: For those who do 12 hole bridge, what's your measurement for the lower hole? I'm thinking 4mm (~5/32th) My second question is about 18 holes bridges: What are the advantage? What 3 holes give more than 2? And drilling 18 holes in a tie block is not making it too weak? Thanks! Francis |
|
| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
It also allows little celebrations on the tie block without the need for strings to go across it. Attachment: Laplante#99Bridge.jpg Attachment: Laplante#96CompleteBridge.jpg Attachment: Laplante#100completebridge.jpg
|
|
| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
David, It's the first time I see 12 holes used this way... interesting. Edit: Oh. That's 18.
|
|
| Author: | two dogs [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I use 12 hole bridges on my ukuleles. Bottom of bridge to center line of hole is .100, or about 2mm. The bridges are about .320 tall over all. Hmm can't seem to be able to post a pic from iPhone. |
|
| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Filippo Morelli wrote: 18 rocks. Will not release the string under tension. No more melting treble string tips. No more string slaps on soundboard. Filippo Strings can certainly slip - still need melted tips. (The set I have on my first 18-holer right now has the high e and b hanging on by the melted tips.) |
|
| Author: | wbergman [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Don't be lulled into a sense of security if strings do not slip. After 30 years of a favorite brand, I started experimenting with other brands. One brand had a high e that always slipped immediately. |
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I do 18 hole bridges, but I always melt a ball, and recommend it to anyone brave enough to buy one of my guitars. I have had a string slip. It didn't ding the top, but it did slip. It's particularly true of carbon strings. The e string is nearly always stopped by the little ball. My bottom hole is 3.5 mm from the base of the bridge, and is slanted upwards toward the top of the bridge block, about 7 or 8 degrees. This puts the hole out near the bottom of the channel without having to go too deep in the channel. It also relieves some of the propensity of the string to break due to the severe break angle. I also chamfer the holes on both sides, to keep from having sharp edges. |
|
| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I do the same Waddy as to a chamfer as well as a slight angle on all the holes. The angle sends the string up along the ramp behind the saddle rather than forcing it to bump into it. I'm using D'Addarios and leave a fairly long "tail" on them and have not experienced any slipping (yet). When yours did slip, was it at full tension? Also I'm assuming the reason there was no damage was that the string velocity was slowed sufficiently by the 3 holes before it slapped the top? |
|
| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
That is all good infos... I think I'll go with the 18 holes. Waddy, do you angle the 18 holes or only the 6 bottom ones? Thanks! Francis |
|
| Author: | Carey [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I like Hannabach low tension nylon trebles for the 'e' and often the 'b' string, but they are the slipperiest trebles I've used. Definitely burn a ball if you use them. |
|
| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
How do you chamfer a hole on both sides of the bridge? I can't visualize fitting a tool between the saddle and string hole to chamfer it. I think this is an excellent idea, but apparently I need a little help on this one. |
|
| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Jim Watts wrote: How do you chamfer a hole on both sides of the bridge? I can't visualize fitting a tool between the saddle and string hole to chamfer it. I think this is an excellent idea, but apparently I need a little help on this one. Well, I'm interested to know the waddy's technique... But I guess that the chamfer is useful only on the ''upper side'' of the hole... Then a little file can fit there. |
|
| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Yeah, I guess that's right, but I also would like to know what tool/technique he uses. |
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Actually, what I use is a little dremel tool burr bit, held in my fingers. I just spin it in each of the holes, front and back of the tie block. You can just get it into the bottom holes enough to get the edges, but it mostly gets the top edge which is the most important. I don't know the correct nomenclature for the bit, but it is pointed, looks like an arrowhead from the side, and has lots of little teeth! 
|
|
| Author: | DennisK [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
David LaPlante wrote: I do the same Waddy as to a chamfer as well as a slight angle on all the holes. The angle sends the string up along the ramp behind the saddle rather than forcing it to bump into it. I'm using D'Addarios and leave a fairly long "tail" on them and have not experienced any slipping (yet). When yours did slip, was it at full tension? Also I'm assuming the reason there was no damage was that the string velocity was slowed sufficiently by the 3 holes before it slapped the top? Actually, I think the 18 hole bridge pretty much eliminates the possibility of string scratches. Think about it, the string goes over the saddle, through a hole and out the back of the bridge, and then right into another hole. As it slides out through those holes, the whipping tail of the string is super short, only the distance between the first and second holes. On a 6 or 12 hole bridge, the whole wrap over the tie block whips over and down onto the soundboard. I also like being able to see the tie block inlay clearly with an 18 hole. |
|
| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Waddy, I chamfer using that same little dremel bit you describe in just the same way, spun between my fingers. |
|
| Author: | douglas ingram [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I've used both 12 and 18 hole bridges. I like them, and can vouch for the still remaining potential of the strings to slip. One thing to pay attention to, probably a greater issue that the chamfer of string holes, is the break angle of the strings. If you have too much angle you are putting a lot more torque on the saddle. This may or may not be an issue for some people. An added benefit of the 12 and 18 hole bridges is that the player can experiment with break angle for different string sets, or even different strings within a set. A 12/18 hole bridge can still have the strings tied on as a 6 hole bridge. With all of those extra little holes being drilled, you do have to pay a great deal of attention to doing a good job of drilling them. |
|
| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Waddy and David, thanks for the tip on the dremal bit. Filippo, Nice idea; I suppose thats more of a 12-1/2 hole bridge than an 18 though. 
|
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
One of the biggest appeals of the 18 holer to me is the clean tie block. If I liked strings over the top, I'd just do 12 holes. I don't have to put bone edges to keep the strings from digging into the wood. big time saver, and I can decorate the tie block with wood inlay instead of bone, like David. |
|
| Author: | douglas ingram [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Filippo, looks like a nice way to tie the strings. I'm going to have to try that. |
|
| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
douglas ingram wrote: "One thing to pay attention to, probably a greater issue that the chamfer of string holes, is the break angle of the strings. If you have too much angle you are putting a lot more torque on the saddle. This may or may not be an issue for some people. " A steep break angle puts a lot of tipping force on the top of the saddle, which can split out the front of the bridge. The best ways to fight that are to leave more than the usual 3mm, or so of wood in front of the saddle (I set the saddle back 5mm from the front edge), and angle the saddle back so that, in the side view, it's not perpendicular to the top. If the saddle bisects the break angle, there will be _no_ net tipping force, but even a few degrees helps a lot. |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
I use both 12 & 18 hole bridges. I went to the 12 for "Flamencos" and they have worked out great. A bit more break angle-helps with their playing style. The string does not slide or vibrate on the saddle. I got the 18 hole idea from Jose Romanillos. David L. can help on this but I think it was his idea to start with. I like it allot-you can dress up the tie block(make it look hot) and string dings are a thing of the past. I use on all my classicals. I took a 18 holer to Montreal 4 years ago & Charles Fox & Ervin S----------- Were like WOW!!!Nice idea! But I told them it was Jose's & it was a NICE idea. Mike |
|
| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
Indeed Mike, Jose' Romanillos is universally credited with the 18 hole design. I was introduced to it in 2007 during my time studying with him at his course in Spain. |
|
| Author: | Mike Collins [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
David; Are you in touch with Jose at all? He must be getting up there in age . Did ya have a good location in Woodstock? Mike ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
|
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 12 and 18 holes bridges |
All my saddles are set back 5 mm from the front edge too. I actually don't mind melting the little ball on the end of the string. You really only have to do it for the high e, but I usually do it for all of the trebles, just for safety sake. None but the e have slipped, so far. The e is nearly always held by the ball. That said, I still like the clean tie block. totally a visual thing for me. Once I learned to do the 18 hole tie, it takes me no longer than any other tie. Slanted holes (all of them) helps a lot. Did that on #9 and really liked the way it worked. |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|