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Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
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Author:  ernie [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
I was reading about a loofier in e. tenn who uses these 2 woods as alternative top woods for his steel string guitars. I can readily get sycamore from the local sawmill 1/4 sawn , but the softer pauwlonia grows further south, and is a favorite wood in japan . Has anyone out there used these 2 woods for guitar tops?? and if you did . How did they turn out? thanks.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Sycamore isn't that stable (radial expansion and tangential expansion differ). And in stiffness to weight ratio, it can't compete with spruce, cedar, or redwood.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Darryl Young wrote:
Sycamore isn't that stable (radial expansion and tangential expansion differ). And in stiffness to weight ratio, it can't compete with spruce, cedar, or redwood.

Yeah, look at my Spring-Back thread!
Author:  ernie [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Your right abt the sycamore. My question is more directed to how do these 2 top tone woods stackup soundwise compared to the usual spruce , cedar etc. Have used sycamore aged 15 yrs for back and sides no problems.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
The reality is that you can do it... It will work just fine.... You may need to thickness to a deflection rather than to a dimension....

It won't sound like a Spruce or Cedar topped guitar.... but it will still sound like a Guitar.... kinda like a Mahogany or Koa topped guitar doesn't sound like Spruce or Cedar either.... but they do sound good!

Just another idea.... If you are looking for a "Local" alternative to Spruce or Cedar - I might look at something like White pine....

Thanks
Author:  ballbanjos [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Paulonia grows super super fast. Trees get huge very quickly. The wood is commonly used around here (East Tennessee) for stickering spacers and things like that. For tonewood, I'd be leery. It's a cool tree that's great for supporting otherwise eroding soil around creek banks. It's good for any place you need a quick-growing deciduous tree. But it grows so quickly that it is a lot like cardboard in its properties...

Dave
Author:  John Arnold [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Paulownia is a prized wood in the Far East and is used for stringed instruments. Though we consider it a weed tree in East TN, I know of loggers who seek it out for export. Back in the 1970's, I heard of stumpage prices as high as $2 per board foot, making it more valuable than cherry or black walnut. It is so valuable and grows so fast that there are tree farms in some areas of TN.
Quote:
Sycamore isn't that stable

Stability of sycamore is not a problem when the thin body woods are quartersawn, and the bonus is the lacewood figure.
Quote:
how do these 2 top tone woods stackup soundwise compared to the usual spruce , cedar etc.

Hardwoods are stiffer across the grain than conifers. They also don't have the stiffness along the grain for comparable weight. I would characterize the typical sound as less high overtones and less depth in the bass, when compared to spruce. Also, hardwood tops tend to have a bit less volume. That is not to say that hardwood tops are inferior, just different.
Sycamore is similar in density to mahogany. Paulownia is much lighter in weight....the common name around here is 'cottonwood'.
Author:  ernie [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Thanks for the input .Will try the sycamore top. But I dont really know how to spot a paulownia tree or wood around here in KC , will just keep looking and asking . I noticed that the bark of the paulownia is fairly unusual in its texture.
Author:  truckjohn [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
The easiest thing to spot in the season are the flowers... They are quite beautiful.. Purple or blue or sometimes pink trumpet shaped fragrant flowers.... The leaves are *HUGE* usually - and can be up to 2' diameter...

Probably around there - you will see them in yards.... Another name is the "Empress tree"....

Thanks
Author:  Clay S. [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Also known as elephant ear tree because of the size and shape of the leaves. After the flowers are gone there are usually seed pods visible.
I've used paulownia for a couple of dulcimer soundboards, and wasn't too impressed. Others claim to have had better luck with it.
Author:  ernie [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Clay what was it abt the paulownia tops on the dulcimers that you did not like??I looked at a vid on youtube by an english loofier who used it for tops /BS and made what looked like a decent instrument. I guess it must be a mixed bag of results , depending on the makers abilities.
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
No real help here as I can't remember who it was, but there was a guy at the Colorado Luthier Show a couple years ago who was talking it up. He loved it. Decent guitar as I remember. Looked good too.

Mike
Author:  byarosh68 [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
The Colorado Luthier that Mike spoke of was me. I have made 2 guitars with Paulownia tops. A steel string and a classical. The steel string sounds great. It was played at the GAL listening event in 2008. A video of that session is posted at my Castor Instruments Facebook page if you want to check it out.

A few things to think about before trying it yourself.

1. The Paulownia wood that I use is the Tomasosa variety. It grows at higher altitudes thus have closer grain lines that the usual variety. I feel it has a better tonal quality than the wide grained stuff sometimes used in light weight solid body guitars.
2. Leave the top thicker than normal. My Steel String is at about twice the thickness of a Spruce top. I don’t measure the thickness as much as feel the stiffness as I sand. Too thin and it turns to rubber. A Ruan (traditional Chinese stringed instrument) that I have has a Paulownia top that is close to 9/16 thick.
3. Before finishing, seal the top. I used an Epoxy fill then sanded before applying a polyurethane finish. Came out great.

I hope this helps.

Brian Yarosh
www.castorinstruments.com
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Hi Ernie,
What I didn't like about the Paulownia topped dulcimers was the sound. They were relatively quiet and had a muddled tone. It was the fast growing variety here in the Middle Atlantic states, soft and wide grained.
Author:  ernie [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
thanks for the resposes clay and brian. Where does one get high altitude paulownia tomasosa species from china japan korea or ?? co.?/
Author:  munen [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
byarosh68 wrote:
The Colorado Luthier that Mike spoke of was me. I have made 2 guitars with Paulownia tops. A steel string and a classical. The steel string sounds great. It was played at the GAL listening event in 2008. A video of that session is posted at my Castor Instruments Facebook page if you want to check it out.

A few things to think about before trying it yourself.

1. The Paulownia wood that I use is the Tomasosa variety. It grows at higher altitudes thus have closer grain lines that the usual variety. I feel it has a better tonal quality than the wide grained stuff sometimes used in light weight solid body guitars.
2. Leave the top thicker than normal. My Steel String is at about twice the thickness of a Spruce top. I don’t measure the thickness as much as feel the stiffness as I sand. Too thin and it turns to rubber. A Ruan (traditional Chinese stringed instrument) that I have has a Paulownia top that is close to 9/16 thick.
3. Before finishing, seal the top. I used an Epoxy fill then sanded before applying a polyurethane finish. Came out great.

I hope this helps.

Brian Yarosh
http://www.castorinstruments.com


hello,
i googled Paulownia Tomasosa and couldnt find anything.
could you be talking about "Tomentosa" which is actually a smaller and slower growing variety?
by the way im growing some of them, here are the two that survived. but im trying with more seeds and a different aproach.
im planning to plant them on a piece of land i bougth for my future home ;)

Image
Author:  ernie [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
try googling all the 12 different sub species with their latin names.
Author:  byarosh68 [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
Bruno,

You are correct! My mistake. The Tomentosa variety is the one I use. The tree Bob Lang and I found was in an town square somewhere in West Virginia. The tree removal guy was selling the logs. We asked him to cut us out a quarter sawn section and send it to us. We then re-sawed it ourselves for tops. I only have one set left from that tree. We are having problems sourcing more.

Brian
Author:  munen [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
byarosh68 wrote:
Bruno,

You are correct! My mistake. The Tomentosa variety is the one I use. The tree Bob Lang and I found was in an town square somewhere in West Virginia. The tree removal guy was selling the logs. We asked him to cut us out a quarter sawn section and send it to us. We then re-sawed it ourselves for tops. I only have one set left from that tree. We are having problems sourcing more.

Brian


according to what i have read around. the species used in big plantations for wood source, soil recovery, biomass etc. are the Elongata and Fortunei, which can develop to comercial wood size in 7 years.
the Tomentosa is only used as ornamental tree, so probably the only way to find wood from these is the way you did before. squares, sidewalks etc.
or you can wait some years and when mine are big enough for tops i can send you some in trade... :D
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
I've been wanting to try Paulownia for some time now after a dulcimer maker claimed it's the best tone wood he's ever used and that I ought to try it for guitar. Haven't gotten around to it. IF anyone ever finds a supplier please let me know :)
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Paulownia and American sycamore tonewoods
I have several large paulownias I would love to have removed. Around here (north eastern Maryland) they are a weed tree for the most part.
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