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New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33952		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John A [ Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
Hi everyone,

I finally moved into my new house and eager to start building guitars.
I have an 18 foot by 10 foot basement room that will be my workshop. The room is framed now with 2x4. I want to put up drywall - I want to control the humidity well and will most likely get a dehumifier if needed. Are there any other tips to control the humidity ?

1. Should I seal the concrete floor with paint before installing my floor (bamboo) ?
2. Should I put plastic sheet on the walls between the studs and the drywall, or will that be bad not having the room breath well ?
3. I will have 2 doors into/out of my room. Outside one door is the HVAC central air, powered by gas, and the gas water heater.
4. My major power tool use will be a 14" band saw (occasionally) and the drill press, and if I figure out dust collection maybe a power sander and sanding table.
5. I have a portable dust collector that I can attach to each device.
6. If I get a bigger DC, and I only use the dust collector occasionally, an hour per month let's say - would it be too bad if I just send the DC exhaust outside the house through a vent ? Much like my clothes dryer does ? If I go this route then I would get a larger DC and a particle separator and just vent the fine dust. Also, my clothes dryer exhaust tube (metal) is right there in my workshop - can I just connect to this tube with Y connector, my connection would only be 1 foot or so from the outside outlet of the dryer exhaust. The dryer is about 18 feet away.


I will also be building the EAA Chapter 1000 Standardized Work Table - I will probably build 3 or 4 of them. they are 5 feet each, so i was thinking a row of 3 tables, with one of those having the short side on the wall, and one table for the drill press and other table power tools. The band saw stays on it's own.


Any idea or answers to my questions ?

Thank you so much for the help !

John
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
1. Should I seal the concrete floor with paint before installing my floor (bamboo) ?

Yes. Plastic is more a more reliable vapor barrier than anything you paint on. I would use that if it's compatible with your floor installation.

2. Should I put plastic sheet on the walls between the studs and the drywall, or will that be bad not having the room breath well ?

In my world view, it's best to have control. For me, that means sealing and providing ventilation for fresh air as needed.

6. If I get a bigger DC, and I only use the dust collector occasionally, an hour per month let's say - would it be too bad if I just send the DC exhaust outside the house through a vent ? Much like my clothes dryer does ? If I go this route then I would get a larger DC and a particle separator and just vent the fine dust.

If you exhaust air outside, makeup air needs to come from somewhere. You would need to have an air inlet equal in diameter to you outlet. So it depends on your climate and how much you will be using it. Advantage is that you don't need a filter. That gains you efficiency in the system and saves you some cost and cleaning time. Disadvantage is you have just pulled outside air in that may or may not be the right temp/humidity.

Also, my clothes dryer exhaust tube (metal) is right there in my workshop - can I just connect to this tube with Y connector, my connection would only be 1 foot or so from the outside outlet of the dryer exhaust. The dryer is about 18 feet away.

Connect the DC to it? Not unless you want sawdust in your dryer.

I would consider OSB or plywood instead of drywall. Easier to install and you can screw straight into it.

Good luck.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
I will address the DC system to the best of my ability. Personally, I would keep the system separated from the house system in all ways possible. Remember that sawdust is explosive in the right conditions. It is also very flammable. So, piping it out of the house and letting it pile outside, is a hazard. For the same reason, I would not connect it into your dryer vent output. It would be much better idea to stick with a separate DC system and keep all out of the rest of your house. It is going to be bad enough if you have an air return that is sucking the dust into your air system and then blowing it into the rest of the house.
Author:  wbergman [ Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
Emphasizing what was already posted, 18 x 10 x 8 feet = 1440 cubic feet, which isn't much more than the cfm capacity of many vacuum dust collection systems. So, you would change the air every minute. There is no way that any house heater or air conditioner can keep up with that. Same goes for humidity control. So, you are not just disturbing the air environment a litlle, but totally screwing it up.
Author:  Michael Smith [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
I would seal the concrete with a two part epoxy floor paint. It's not cheap and it is going to blow you out of the house for a few days but it will last for ever. Make sure you use a proper mask and filters. I wouldn't want the bamboo in my shop. It is better to seal the concrete on the walls of your basement than putting plastic on the framing but that will also work. In general it won't work to vent your dust collection system to the outside as a full fledged dust collection system displaces too much air and will draw moist air from outside your house. That will raise the humidity in your workshop too high and your dehumidifier will not come close to keeping up. If you are simply using a shopvac you would likely get away with venting that outside.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
John,
I'm in a similar situation- I'm about to start work this weekend on my workshop which is an out building off the side of the house. I'm dividing it in half to have a (hopefully) clean, controlled temperature/humidity area and the other area for dusty work which will be unheated.
Thanks for reminding me about the concrete floor. I hadn't thought about that. I'm on a tight budget so I might just go for a few layers of floor paint and some carpet (will this be sufficient?).
I'm looking at using a tube heater with thermostat for the heating. Not sure about humidity control, what are you going to use?
It's quite tricky at this stage to know where everything is going to go, isn't it? I'm expecting it will just grow organically, which in my terms is an excuse for a messy workshop!
Keep me informed on your progress it will be intersting.
Author:  John A [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
thanks for the info - and good luck Joe Sallis -

My house is a newly built house - and the builder already put the insulation on the concrete, so no sealing the concrete wall, plus the framing is up already. I'll just hang plastic on the studs. Likewise for the floor - I have two small kids and if the paint requires a mask an evac - I'll skip that as well. I will lay plastic on the concrete floor before putting down my floor. Since I have a drain nearby - I'll probably get a humidifier/dehumidifier unit to run down there. Hopefully all that will be enough to keep things stable.

My old house before - the humidity in my office workshop was between 35% and 50% year around. This house - newly built, my office workshop humidity is around 55 to 60%. Is this because my house is new ? This is stopping me from doing some gluing operations now. So I can't build till I finish the basement workshop and get the humidity control in there.
Author:  Ed Haney [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
John,

Please listen to Kent. A dust collection system connected to a household dryer is an accident waiting to happen - fire or dust explosion. wow7-eyes

If you filter your air down to HEPA or near HEPA filter particle size (the most healthy approach for you, your childern and your wife, i.e. the proper approach IMHO) there is no need to exhaust the air outside. Exhausting the air outside will mess up your ability to control the temperature and humidity.

I also question your estimate of "1 hour dust collection usage per month". I use mine when cutting, drilling, power sanding, and often, hand sanding. The more I use it - the less dust I and my family breath and the less housekeeping there is to do.

I hope you are insulating you 2x4 walls, as well as installing plastic on one wall side, both of which are really cheap to do. I would be concerned with sweating on the floor if plastic is installed there. If it sweats you will likely have mold (unhealty and dangerous) and other problems. Your dehumidifer and humidifier system should be able to handle whatever humidity comes and goes through the floor.

My dust collection system is by far the most expensive thing in my small 8x20 shop. My Heath is the most important thing reguarding my enjoyment of this hobby.
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
Humidity differences between new and old could be new lumber and concrete drying but probably have to do with other factors like better windows, less infiltration d/t better vapor barriers, crawl space vs basement slab, etc.

You've mentioned that you "might" need a dehumidifier. In my experience with a basement you "have" to get one. Water vapor will penetrate a plastic vapor barrier over time. Sooner is better than later to knock the humidity down below the level needed for mold/mildew to thrive. Direct drain the dehumidifier condensate to the sewer is also a suggestion to make it almost maintenence free.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
Looks like I am in a similar situation. I am getting ready to move my workspace to the other side of the basement (into a much better space). I am gong into a 10 x 20 foot room but unfortunately the drywall is already up. Parts of the ceiling had to be removed, so I am going to duct my 2hp portable dust collector into a closet. I ordered a 35a cartridge filter form Wynn it was about $130 bucks. I haven't used it yet but it is supposed to be 99.9% efficient at 0.5 micron. That should do well to keep the dust down.

I also plan to do the epoxy paint on the floor. Joe, I'm planning to use the rustoleum kit from HD (like $65); you mentioned expense, is there a better 2 part epxoy floor paint I am missing? Did you mean that you are gong to use several layers of that product? I'm not sure you would need multiple coats, but I'd like other opinions. I have decided not to go with carpet because it always gets plane and scraper shavings ground into it and is a pain to keep clean; I would rather sweep.

This room is connected to the heat/AC so I should be okay with humidity during winter and summer (not so much in the spring and fall) which will be better than my current set up of having to plan all my builds to go together in the winter.
Author:  Michael Smith [ Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
using insulation behind the studs will help keep the moisture down. And yes on the plastic. We have done wine cellars and other specialty rooms in high end houses this way. It works. It is hard to say why your background humidity is higher in your new place. Could be your concrete is not fully dry, could be greater moisture in surrounding soil. Could be slab and walls not as well sealed. Could be home heating system provides less dry air to basement, could be new heating system does not dry the air as much. Too many possibilities to tell from here.
Author:  John A [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
My concrete walls are insulated - I have one wall that will be a media room on the other side - should I be insulating that wall, between the media room and the workshop ?

so no plastic on the concrete - I had the same thought about trapping moisture in - I will definitely get a dehumidifier -
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall ques
No need to insulate an interior wall, unless it is sound insulation. You would likely want to keep the TV noise from interfering with the gentle sounds of lutherie. [headinwall] gaah [headinwall]

Alex
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall
Ed Haney wrote:
I would be concerned with sweating on the (concrete) floor if plastic is installed there. If it sweats you will likely have mold (unhealty and dangerous) and other problems.

I have been thinking about doing this, as it seems that most people recommend it for moisture protection and it seems like the plastic is sold for that purpose. Would anyone else have concerns about mold etc.?
Author:  Bri [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall
Here are a few things to consider,

Use a sill gasket under the bottom plate to isolate the plate and the concrete. Unless you use treated lumber for a bottom plate, spf framing lumber is prone to rot, so use a gasket. Its cheap.Who wants treated lumber in the house.

If you will have different temps on either side of the wall you can create condensation. The vapor barrier goes on the warm side. For an interior wall I would not bother. If your heat/cool source is forced air, the exchange rate could negate the benefit of a single room dehumidifier.

Is the bamboo a floating floor? If so it should be installed with a vapour barrier, likely supplied by the floor supplier. If it is a glue down the adhesives are typically are a barrier. I assume it is on concrete.

Remember if you chose to Vent the dust outside, you also vent the heating and cooling. This can be be an enormous waste of energy and will instantly cool or heat the effected space. Also you may require make-up air to replace the vented air. Creating negative pressure inside will cause backdraft on fireplaces and furnaces and any other device which is vented.

I have built homes for the past 25 years in Canada and have tried to educate myself to the best building practices. Though the last few years have been more cabinetry and furniture as I can't frame anymore I have seen the results of what works and what does not.

A new shop is exciting
Good Luck
Brian
Author:  Bri [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New workshop - and dust collection question and drywall
My old house before - the humidity in my office workshop was between 35% and 50% year around. This house - newly built, my office workshop humidity is around 55 to 60%. Is this because my house is new ? This is stopping me from doing some gluing operations now. So I can't build till I finish the basement workshop and get the humidity control in there.[/quote]


At some point the home should return to your previous humidity levels if you are in the same area.
Concrete, framing lumber, drywall mud, and paint create an enormous amount of humidity.
You may want to wait for some months to see how it stabilizes prior to investing in dehumidification.
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