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fretting the finger board. On or off the neck? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33910	Page 1 of 2

Author:	warpedbored [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:	fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I'm on my first build and I know a few other luthiers locally. Talking to them it seems to be evenly divided. Is it better to install the frets after the fingerboard is on the neck or before? One luthier friend says to wait until the neck is installed because you can make sure it's aligned with the body. What's your preference and why? It seems like it would be a lot easier with the fingerboard off of the neck.

Author:	theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I glue my fretboards on to the neck shaft prior to radiusing or fretting, so that I can make sure the fretboard surface is level and even, with no humps or bumps prior to fretting. One reason I think Gibson necks always have a slight "s" curve to them is because they radius, inlay, fret, and bind their fretboards before gluing them down, and so the fretboard attains the shape of the surface it's glued to, and the white gluethey use to glue the fretboards on introduces moisture into the neck. By gluing my fretboard down before radiusing, I can assure that, even if the fretboard attains a slight irregularity, it is evened out prior to fretting through the radiusing process. I also shape the backs of my necks first for the same reasons, just in case there is some slight tension in the wood to be relieved upon shaping.

Author:	Ti-Roux [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I can really speak by experience, but I will give my point of view on that. I think it is really better to do it after all is glued (neck and FB), simply because you want to ajust/configure your fingerboard well before you fret it. And that said, many things can move during the buidling process. The configuration of your FB will depend on the string action you want, the angle of your neck, the radius of your top, the height of your bridges, etc... You want to consider those things when they are the closest to final, and that means when the neck and he fingerboard are glued. My 2 cents Francis

Author:	peterm [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I fret first then glue it to the neck. Don't use any water based glue as it will definitely induce moisture into the wood and move it some....

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
There are definitely some excellent builders that fret before gluing on the board but they have perfected the technique through lots of experience. For many of us, leveling and fretting as the last step (with the neck on the guitar) probably offers the best chance for the outcome we desire. It's what I do.

Author:	DennisK [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
Slot and inlay the fingerboard, rough the neck, glue the fingerboard, finish the neck and body, attach neck to body and glue down the fingerboard extension, level and radius fingerboard, and finally install the frets. And for my current guitar, I'm trying leaving the shell inlay pockets empty until after radius sanding, so I don't fluff up shell dust all over. Then I'll glue them and scrape flush.

Author:	Michael.N. [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
For many years I fretted after gluing the fretboard. In the last year I've done all of them 'pre-fretted'. All your components have to be very accurate for it to be successful. Frets are glued into wide slots so that there is very little distortion of the board. I haven't noticed any movement using HHG or Fish glue, if it's happened it has been minimal. Usually I don't have to do much leveling and re-crowning.

Author:	woody b [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I've done it both ways, and can't seem to find an arguement either way.

Author:	PT66 [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
"Don't use any water based glue" What kind of glue doesn't have moisture?

Author:	Trevor Gore [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
Epoxy

Author:	B. Howard [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I have found the best way for me to get an absolutely flat fretboard is to fret before gluing. I follow this order; dimension and prep blank, slot board, taper board, rout inlays, bind board, radius board, install inlays. Then I fix the board to a granite surface plate and sand the surface to 1200, hammer in the frets, level & crown them and dress the ends. I will do the final polish on them when I am ready to do the set up as this will take care of any scuffs from assembly and remove tape residue from masking the board when finishing. I glue mine with Titebond, nothing fancy. I perform the final carving and sanding of the neck after the board is glued. I don't know how much glue some of you must use to get moisture induced movement when gluing things like this up but in my years as a professional woodworker I have never noticed that, even with the thinnest veneers and marquetry's.

Author:	PT66 [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I would not want to use epoxy to glue on the fingerboard. I may need to take it off at some time. I have always leveled and fretted after the board is glued to the neck.

Author:	David LaPlante [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
There is no one correct way. It all depends on the "system" of construction you are using. Years ago when making old Martin style dovetail necks with a non adjustable steel bar in the neck I would attach an unfretted board, then true and relieve it about .005" from the 5th fret back to the nut as well as from the 12th fret to the 20th. This would compensate for the slight bowing under tension to provide the correct (hopefully) relief. Later truss rodded necks allowed a flat board to first be fretted then attached with relief dtermined through rod adjustment. For classicals I attach the board to the assembled guitar and true it before fretting and carving. The addition of a 2 way truss rod in these also allows precise control of string relief for clients finicky about action feel.

Author:	cphanna [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I've done it successfully both ways, but I've settled on a sort of combination method that works real well for me. I first locate the fretboard where I want it on the neck. I do this while the neck back is still flat. I choose two fret slots--one over the heel and one near the nut--and carefully drill two pin holes in each of those slots. I do this with the board dry clamped to the neck. Then I tap in some wire brads just deep enough to penetrate a little into the neck. No deeper than 1/8th inch. Then, with the fingerboard off the instrument, I put in all the frets EXCEPT the two where I've drilled my pin holes. I then glue the board down, using the brads again to keep everything in alignment. After the neck is mounted to the instrument, I can safely install the two remaining frets without fear of cracking the top. They cover the pin holes very nicely. Fret leveling and dressing is one of the last things I do before applying finish. Sometimes I need to touch up the frets a bit after stringing up, but that isn't much of a problem.

Author:	Rod True [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
PT66 wrote: I would not want to use epoxy to glue on the fingerboard. I may need to take it off at some time. I have always leveled and fretted after the board is glued to the neck. I've never understood this. Epoxy releases just fine with heat (about 125*F) so there is no issue if you want to remove a fretboard. I've done it so this is from real world experience. Like Woody, I've done both but can't seem to decide on either method to stick with. I had success with both methods.

Author:	Kent Chasson [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
An excellent job can be done either way and either way can be easily screwed up. I have pre-fretted the last 50 or so and doubt I will ever go back. The main things I like about it: -I like pressing vs hammering. (I particularly don't like hammering over the body.) -Fretting always induces a backbow and the amount differs with different wood densities. If I fret before glueing, I can straighten it out and get more predictable results. -The less work I have to do after final finish and buff, the better.

Author:	nickton [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I remember reading the Cumpiano/Natelson book where it recommends installing the board, introducing a slight bow, and jointing it flat in order to have a relief "pre shaped" (if I am not mistaken). Most people seem to think this unnecessary. I never thought of making wider slots to prevent fret tang movement, but it makes me go "hmm" (as Ronnie Lott would say). Eventually I want to build a fret board perfectly flat with stainless steel wire, that requires no filing at all upon set up. Perhaps I am dreaming.

Author:	truckjohn [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I think if it's an early guitar and you don't have all your methods exactly right.. Glue the fretboard to the neck, finish up the neck shape and alignment, level the fretboard, THEN fret.... What happens if you glue the fretboard on the neck and it's slightly off - and you have to shave a bit to get it matched up perfectly..... Frets get in the way of that sort of thing.... Later on, once you've got all that alignment stuff perfect and sorted out... have no fear... Glue it on after fretting... Thanks

Author:	Ken C [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I glue on the f/b with epoxy, then final shape the neck. I bolt down the f/b extension, and once that setup is in place with the neck bolted on to the body, I level the f/b. I used to fret before finishing, but I am just finishing up two guitars that I am going to fret after finishing. Ken

Author:	nickton [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
Really? Bolted down f/b extension? Interesting.

Author:	chiptheshrink [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
I fret afterward, but only because it's a little more forgiving. I can do a little more final "tweaking" that way, and unfortunately, I usually need to do a touch. I can make sure that everything is exactly where it needs to be before I fret. If I was good enough that I never needed to adjust a fretboard a little or take a tiny bit of hump out (somehow things are never quite flat and perfect for me after I glue the fretboard down....) or anything like that after gluing and before fretting, I might go ahead and do it before.

Author:	Trevor Gore [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
nickton wrote: Really? Bolted down f/b extension? Interesting. Take a look at this: http://www.goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_neck_joint.html I press the frets in before gluing down the board (with Titebond and using a large castellated caul) and generallly I don't have to touch the frets again. The stability of the neck joint and having continuous wood under the fretboard allows me to do this. You have to have your processes down pat, though. nickton wrote: Eventually I want to build a fret board perfectly flat with stainless steel wire, that requires no filing at all upon set up. Perhaps I am dreaming. No, not at all. I can't remember the last time I had to level/dress frets.

Author:	Ken Franklin [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
nickton wrote: Really? Bolted down f/b extension? Interesting. That's the way Taylor does it so there are a lot of guitars out there with that kind of neck joint.

Author:	Ken C [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
nickton wrote: Really? Bolted down f/b extension? Interesting. Indeed.

Author:	Erik Hauri [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: fretting the finger board. On or off the neck?
For me, same order at Kent and Trevor, using epoxy to attach the board to the neck. And lately I have been trying to dress my fret ends before pressing them into the board. From my own experience, if you're mostly playing down there between the nut and #7 then you can tolerate fairly high action at #12 and not worry too much about fret levelling, provided you're installing frets onto a very well-planed and radiused fretboard, and installing that board on a very well-planed neck blank. But if you're spending time playing in the neighborhood of #12 then you will want lower action, and some fallaway in the upper frets to avoid buzzing. If you're good you can mill this into the fretboard, but its easier and safer to do it on the fret tops.

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