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PEP TALK NEEDED...
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33878		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  PEP TALK NEEDED...
Just finished my 11th guitar... and it looks awesome.. to others.. and yes it looks nice and all, But I only see flaws.... not much at all but still flaws. like the holes on the bridge is not 100% in line so then the strings don't line up perfectly to my eyes... the nut has a tiny tiny gap under it on 1 place etc etc.
The guitar sounds great, OR does it really ? I made it, so I can't really enjoy it. everyone that has seen it say s wow, but I feel like eeehh i´ll put it on the shelf and make another one that will be perfect .... NEXT one will be the ONE. I really don't like the feeling this brings me.. I want to know what i hear and see what others say they see. but I cant. [xx(] [xx(] .

will try and put up some shots of it soon..

Lars.
Author:  Rod True [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Lars, this happens to us all, we all see our flaws in every guitar we make, or at least we know about them and have hidden them from even our own eyes. This is one thing that will help improve your quality over time. There aren't many that can say their work is flawless even after 50-100 guitars. Perfect is not acheivable IMO but near perfect is ;)

Now sound is subjective. I've built a few guitars that I've found rather.....blaa but others think they sound great. This will always change as you grow as a builder. Heck I remember John Mayes saying how it took him 17 prototype guitars before he was able to hit the sound he was after, the other 16 he destroyed.....This isn't saying that what he was building to sell at the time didn't sound good or great, it just wasn't the focused sound he was after. He knew it worked and worked well but he was still looking for HIS sound and he finally got it.

Different woods and all that you know, after you've built 30 or so, you might have a better idea of the sound you want, but then again, it might take 100 or more....
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Lars Stahl wrote:
Just finished my 11th guitar... and it looks awesome.. to others.. and yes it looks nice and all, But I only see flaws.... not much at all but still flaws. like the holes on the bridge is not 100% in line so then the strings don't line up perfectly to my eyes... the nut has a tiny tiny gap under it on 1 place etc etc.
The guitar sounds great, OR does it really ? I made it, so I can't really enjoy it. everyone that has seen it say s wow, but I feel like eeehh i´ll put it on the shelf and make another one that will be perfect .... NEXT one will be the ONE. I really don't like the feeling this brings me.. I want to know what i hear and see what others say they see. but I cant. [xx(] [xx(] .

will try and put up some shots of it soon..

Lars.

Perfection is impossible. Striving for it should only yield the best results, but expecting to actually achieve perfection will only lead to disappointment. Even if you somehow managed to create the "perfect" guitar in your eyes, it would probably end up with a nick, a scratch, signs of wear and age, faded colors, et cetra and there goes your perfection once again.

Look at Michael Hedges' Guitar in this video. The imperfections on this thing are endless, but it still sounds pretty good. Admittedly Hedges is one of the best ever, but still the point remains- Guitars are not supposed to be enjoyed for their lack of perceivable flaws, they are meant to be enjoyed through the art of music.

Author:  Stuart Gort [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
What's so hard about being perfect? S'matter with you? Have you tried committing yet?

You could do this if you REALLY wanted to. You just don't want this badly enough.

Just think positive. The me I see is the me I'll be.



Did that help?



Ok, try this. Human beings are built to strive...but not to transcend our imperfect selves. We are hard wired for struggle and hope. If hope dies the struggle ceases...and we shrivel. When you stop striving you'll stop growing...and THAT'S when you should feel bad about yourself and what you're doing. You can't actually fail at building guitars unless you quit building them. You can only get better at it if you continue.

And in that light....it seems like you're doing pretty well.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I keep striving for perfection,
and always find the flaws as I'm finishing.
I tell myself I don't care,
but I do.
A top bass player friend of mine told me that if a guitar sounds really good to the player,
they usually don't care about the visuals.
I am working on doing the best I can,
and going after players instead of "jewelry box" collectors.
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Thanks a lot Rod Filippo and "fingerstyle" I know I know I know. And I do agree to what all you say. I am looking at things just like you say filippo. But I sooo want to get me a couple of guitars to show to some real good players I know of. But I simply can't top that as I feel I am not 100% happy with them as is. I remember my uncle, he was a painter an "artist" true to his art and one guy came up to him asking him if he would sell the painting he just finished, he replied, no, its not done yet, it´s still some stuff left to do in my head with it. :D . so to show it to to these players I don't want to see what they "won't see" haha. its a bummer. Anyhow, thanks alot for your words of comfort.

also thanks Zlurhg and Alan, missed what you wrote while typing. :D

Lars.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Lars I've built over 50 guitars now and still see this. Just last night my wife commented on how beautiful the rosette was on a Flamenco I am just finishing. It's my first French Polish. And I was like,.,,,, What? It's hideous, there are pin holes in it that need to be filled etc... :)

The worst is when you are building your 60th guitar and you make the same mistakes you did on your 6th guitar. Sometimes it comes full circle. I blame over confidence on some errors. Mostly these days for me the errors are finish flaws. I've never ever been good at finishing and if the day ever comes that I finish a guitar perfectly then I will purposely scratch it! laughing6-hehe
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
To strive for perfection is neurotic,
To strive for excellence is healthy,
To strive for mediocrity isn't necessary.

Pat
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Strange. I recently built a Guitar where the Bridge holes didn't line up 100%. I don't think they line up 90% either. Trouble is that I've built a whole lot more than 11 Guitars.
I could go back and remove the Bridge and redo it. For the sake of moving 1 or 2 holes 0.5 mm each I'm not convinced it's worth it. I did get a little upset over it. In such cases sometimes it's good to look at the Guitar as a whole and start to look at all the other things that you did well.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Welcome to the world of a true craftsman . I am closing in on 150 now and you would think by now I am perfect but I see flaws . We are working with natural materials and we can always do something better can.t we ? I think the turning point is when you for from Good enough to How can I do it better.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Yep....
It's a musical instrument.... If it doesn't have any flaws now - it will the first time a player picks it up and brushes it up against his shirt or jeans.... or plays with a pick or nails.... or sets it down on it's heel on the floor.....

The thing that helps me get past the hand wringing over a bubble in the finish or a brush mark or whatever is taking it over to the local music store that I am buddies with..... Those guys LOVE hand made instruments.... They will literally play them 8-hours a day if you let them.... I take them over and get to listen to the most beautiful music for however long I have time to sit around and listen to each one fawn over the instrument.... I like to leave them there with those folks for between a few weeks and a few months so they can play and tell me how they came out....
Author:  cwood8656 [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I see flaws on every guitar I build. They are small, but still stand out to me.

Chris.
Author:  David Newton [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I don't post on threads like this.
I'm human.
Author:  cphanna [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
My friend, Lars,
You are a perfectionist. Most all great artists are perfectionists. You will always be your own most demanding critic. Most of the rest of us will respect and admire your instruments and strive to equal them. These same things could be said of most of the builders on the forum.

You will never stop being a perfectionist. You will always judge your own efforts harshly. As a result, your instruments will get better and better. You will occasionally arrive at a plateau where your art and craft don't advance for a while. It won't regress, but for a little while, it won't advance, either. Then you will have a breakthrough, and you will advance to a newer, higher plateau.

Through all of this, you will always be your own most severe critic. Please don't be too harsh with yourself.

Does this help you? It's all quite true, and could be said of any perfectionist.

Let me just say that I respect your designs, I am envious of your ability to adapt a plan in the most subtle of ways to achieve a fairer curve or a fuller shape. I am certain I am not alone in those thoughts.

You are not yet among the builders who have made 50 or 100 or 500 instruments, but you have inspired me, and I suspect you have inspired many, many others.

Press on!

Patrick
Author:  crazicarl [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I'm starting on my first and I didn't get the scarf joint perfect. I looked at it, realized that based on what I've read and know about woodworking and machining that the joint will hold perfectly well, shrugged and continued on my happy way.

My mom is found of telling me (and I don't know if this is true) but the Amish (or the Shakers, can't recall which) purposely leave imperfections in what they craft because the only perfect creator is the Lord. Not trying to be all religious, but I don't think that perfection is a thing reserved to mere mortals.
Author:  Jim_H [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I have never seen a perfect guitar. In fact I don't even know what one is.

To someone's point, I think you could go crazy even thinking about being 'perfect' in this sense.
Author:  ernie [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
The only thing that is perfect, laughing6-hehe is when one is perfectly dead. The rest of us ,including our instruments are somewhat flawed
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I just wanted to tell you something, Lars, that might keep you going, a little.
The shapes of your guitars that you've come up with are perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pfft
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
THANK YOU ALL... woke up a while ago and got to read your comments, so this might be a better day :D .

also to quote back to "crazicarls" comment
Quote:
because the only perfect creator is the Lord.

Well, he did make us teeth, and man, they break way to often. laughing6-hehe

Also , yes the finishing is a pain in the b... seem to always get a ding or some sink in a pore somewhere after I thought i was done. finishing is an art itself :roll: But one thing I have come to realize after getting me some better gear is that the tools used make a tremendous different the outcome...

Lars.
Author:  John Coloccia [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
If you want to feel better, go down to the local music store and start looking at their guitars closely the same way you look at your own guitars. I have an acoustic here...I won't name who's...and it's not a bargain basement model either. I think I paid about $3500 for it. Anyhow, there are fit and finish problems that are downright embarrassing. They missed somewhere and the neck extension doesn't even fully cover the fancy schmancy neck joint...it looks horrible. Not in a million years would I ever dream of selling a guitar like that with my own name on it.

That said, I bought it anyway because from the first second I picked it up it spoke to me. I'm glad someone over at Tay...uhm, I mean that company who built it...has low standards and didn't toss this one in the junk bin....it would have been a shame.
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
here´s the guitar. :D

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33892

Lars.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Hi Lars,
Obsessive-compulsive types are often the least happy folks you'll meet.
Always upset over their materials, their work, the time spent, public perception, etc.
But they end up building the best guitars.
You haven't built a great number of instruments, but already you've risen to a high level of craft.
Everyone here either respects your work, or loves it out of all proportion.
So I'd say you are doing something right. Your perfectionism is driving you onward like a good stiff breeze, and most of us predict that you'll land somewhere close to your own ideals.

And by the way, that guitar looks just great. I'd say the materials are more flawed than your execution.

Steve
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Again, thank you all.

Stephen my friend. I am honored for the wonderful words....truly. thank you.
saw your beautiful looking guitar at dreamguitars.com -- http://www.dreamguitars.com/detail/2575 ... or_021059/
so nice sounding and looking guitar. [:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:]
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
Of course, amigo!
We all need the pep talk now and again.
Next time I'm down in the dumps, I'm sure you'll cheer me up!

Steve
Author:  nickton [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: PEP TALK NEEDED...
I think the beauty of a a guitar is it's relative primitiveness. If you wanted something perfect you'd get it made entirely by machines.
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