Thanks.
I'll do all those things.
I probably was loading the pad too much on the second coat.
Looks like it will take a while to get this down.
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | F.P. questions... |
So I've 2 sessions done, and have some questions. I've watched J Michael Thames u-tube vid on it, and the way he keeps going back over the whole top is impossible for me. Mine is too sticky, so I'm doing sections, and using more D.A. to lap the sections together. Is this right? Maybe the D.A. dries quicker than the 190 proof Everclear? We can't get that in CA. Also, I plan on 2 more coats, level with wet 1500, then go 2 more coats and level (?) with 1500, then rottenstone. Is that it, or is there another step? I've got 5 or so coats of well cured varnish under this, which was wet sanded level with 600. Thanks! Oh, I'm using a drop of olive oil on the pad every so often. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
I wouldn't recommend doing more than about 3 bodying sessions each day. More than that, and you may have sticky shellac. One thing that you may be leaving out, but I can't tell from what you've said, is the stiffing/spiriting off sessions after the body sessions. This gets rid of the oil that rises to the surface. Use as little oil as you can get away with. Maybe, a drop every other load to the muneca. Work as dry as possible, and you'll get a faster build. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Thanks Waddy. What you said is what I'm doing with the amount of oil. I was even using less. So, I should spirit off at the end of the session in circular motion, or straight, or both? |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
I spirit off in straight motions. I start out fairly well charged with DA, not so much that it would puddle or drip. I start out with a light touch gradually applying more and mote pressure as the pad dries out. At the completion of a spiriting session the finish should look good. |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
If things are too sticky then it may just be a matter of volume of shellac/alcohol in the pad. It is really hard to believe just how little material needs to be in the pad for things to work. I add shellac, alcohol, and oil by the drop as needed. I think of the pad as a wick much like an alcohol lamp and try to feed it just enough shellac mixture at any one time to maintain a flow of shellac. I reload my pad often with just a few drops. Once a nice build is developed, you should not need any sanding. You can spirit off in circles with no problems. If circles are causing problems with the finish then I would suggest less volume of shellac/alcohol/oil etc. during spiriting. I constantly monitor the amounts of the materials and make constant adjustments. Unfortunately there is no formula. I also use a glancing light and notice if what I am doing is IN the surface or ON the surface. If things are ON the surface then I carry on. If things are IN the surface then I adjust my alcohol or oil (usually by adding one or the other depending on what I feel) and work out the problem gradually. After all of that wordiness I would suggest just reducing the amount of materials used by proportion and seeing if things do not improve. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
A good general rule for FP is that you can't fight it: if it's not doing what you want, the best thing is usually just to walk away for a while. Too sticky is a classic. There are a number of reasons why it might be sticky, from trying to build too fast to bad shellac to humidity to one or another additive in the denatured alcohol. If you've got bad shellac, or the humidity is too high, that won't be helped by taking a half hour break, but if the problem is trying to build too fast or alcohol problems, allowing it to dry and firm up for a while will make life more pleasant. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Thanks. I'll do all those things. I probably was loading the pad too much on the second coat. Looks like it will take a while to get this down.
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
You didn't mention what pound cut your using, or I missed it, but I find a 1 pound cut works better for me than a two pound cut, even though many recommend a two pound cut. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
I've never figured it out. I usually make a 2 lb cut batch then put it in a bottle and add some alcohol, then when I add to the muneca I put 2 drops shellac and 4 drops alcohol - or + depending on how I feel at the moment! I think I'm probably using something between a 1 lb cut and a 3/4 lb cut. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
On the video I saw, he filled up a jar with flakes, doubled it with alcohol. That's what I did. I've seen more scientifical measuring methods elsewhere. Didn't do anything with it today. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
I'm polishing up a guitar right now, and doing a lot better than last time. Using a mishmash of Millburn, Thames, Eugene Clark (via Somogyi book), and winging it. I mix shellac per Thames, just fill the jar to twice the level of the flakes. My guess that you need more oil. From Eugene's method, I use lots of walnut oil. It's a drying oil, unlike olive, and thus ok to have some remain in the finish (although for the most part the pressure keeps it squeezed up to the surface anyway). I've mostly been using a gum eraser wrapped in cheesecloth for a pad, a'la Thames. With pretty hard pressure, I haven't encountered a limit to how many times I can go over the same area in a row. It's slightly sticky to the touch immediately after applying, but that goes away within 30 seconds or so. It takes longer than that to really harden. I leave it for 30-60 minutes before wiping off the oil with a paper towel. If I do it right away, the shine is dulled. What I've been having the most trouble with is getting the wicking action going with the traditional pad and blond shellac... amber on a traditional pad worked effortlessly. Made a nice sunburst type effect by only rubbing around the edges  Blond works effortlessly on the eraser pad, but that's not going to help me when I get to the sides  Pore filling was a long and miserable process, but at least I think it actually worked. Last time it all sunk back into the pores after a week or two ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") Anyway, I think the top is done. Just rubbed it up to a mirror shine with a fresh scrap of muslin, adding just a couple drops of alcohol at a time (tricky work, as it's extremely sticky without the oil, even with a nearly dry cloth... and you can't see the dull areas if there's oil on the surface). I'd always heard French polish was the most beautiful wood finish of all. Now I believe it. I wasn't even close to the potential glory last time. 
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Alan, I am just about finished with my first attempt at a FP finish. I also used his video and mixed the shellac the same way. I used a Ball jar with measurements to get it perfect but he didn't seem to stressed about accuracy in the video. I only had sticky problems a few times and that was when I made a fresh new munecae. I am not using the rubber eraser method. I found that once the munecae was loaded well with shellac and alcohol it flowed much more smoothly. But it was quite grippy when new, so I just added a bit more alcohol. I found this article to be very helpful too: http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
I think I use now about a 1 lb cut, per Robbie O'Brien's version of Marshall Brune's method, without any extra alcohol until I switch to alcohol for spiriting off. My experience has been that lighter cuts work better for me, causing fewer of the "uh-oh we've gotten sticky" episodes. Now I know I'm going wrong if I can ever get a sense of the surface being moist if I touch it. As Stephen says, work very dry and very sparingly with the added shellac and oil. I don't mind adding oil, but when I add it it's almost only a hint of a drop, more like just wicking the oil at the end of the squeeze bottle spout onto the muneca. |
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| Author: | ozziebluesman [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
G'day Alan, How are you mate? I sent you a private email a few weeks back but you must have a new email address. I used this method to french polish my latest weissenborn copy. Like some others have all ready mentioned I too use a 2lb cut shellac flake mix and metholated spirits. I use a homemade rubber made from clean tee shirt material and use two syringes to apply. I squirt equal amounts on the rubber of the 2lb cut and metho and rub away. I don't use any oil and don't have any issues with the finish becoming sticky. I usually can go around the guitar body four times during a two hour french polish session. Leave it to dry, light sand the next day with 400 grit sandpaper and repeat about ten times. I then leave the guitar dry for a month before a final sand. This guys french polish process is very good IMO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a159BCBwZX4 Hope to hear from you again soon, Cheers Alan ps I have another all blackwood weissenborn copy to closed box stage. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Sounds like everyone is using a 1lb (or less) cut! If you add your 2 lb cut shellac to the muneca, followed by a few drops of alcohol you'll end up with a 1ib cut! That's the one thing that I never understood about the Milburn, they are always adding Shellac AND Alcohol to the Muneca. Why not just dilute the Shellac in the first place? Maybe I misunderstood the method. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Thanks for the input everybody. Alan, e-mail is the same. Maybe my wife put you in "spam"!  Anyway, I made a muneca wrapped with an old cotton sheet, and did a session today that came out better. Another question, J.M.T. uses paraffin oil. All I could find is mineral oil. Is that okay? I did a Google on it, and it's confusing what's-what. |
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Not sure about mineral oil.. never tried it.. Just FYI, J.M.T. gets his FP supplies at this place... http://woodworker.com/rottenstone-mssu- ... archmode=2 Doesn't hurt that it's local to him, but they have paraffin oil, the moser flakes and lint free cheesecloth he uses... |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Well, I really like this fp thing. The one guitar with Sher Will fast dry varnish as a base got sanded back to the wood on the top, and to the varnish on the back and sides. Don't want to pore fill that mahog again. After 3 sessions, the fp started taking chunks of finish off. I think the d a activated the varnish Oh well, I'll fp the top, and varnish the back and sides. The git with the Old Masters varnish base coats is coming out awesome! I've got 8 coats of med amber flake shellac, using mineral, which I like better than the olive oil, not spiriting off, but wiping the oil off with a micromesh cloth, after it's dry. Question, ( if yer still with me ),can I polish with rottenstone and water? Doesn't need much, or swirl remover. Also, can I pore fill after 3 spit coats of shellac, with rottenstone for the next total f p job? Thanks, and sorry for the long post. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
My experience with rottonstone is that it makes a mucky, gray mess. Don't think I'd want that in my pores. Wood or skin!  Pumice will clear with alcohol so it works better. Rottonstone is probably also too fine for pore filling. However, you can pore fill with the spit coats on.
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
| Filippo Morelli wrote: I used 2 lb cut, virgin olive oil for my oil. Came out great my first time out of the gate. As I was a noob like you are on this, I will say a few things - there are a million examples of how to french polish. There are an equivalent amount of suggestions. Here's mine: you just gotta do it and get a feel for it. No one's 2 drops of this and 20 drops of that will work for you. Play with it - a few suggestions here will broaden your experimentation. But at the end of the day its a process you read ... from pressure to motion to technique to mix to materials to ... You'll get it if you just keep on keepin' on Filippo Exactly what I was thinking. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
It's totally a feel thing. When it feels right and you are getting a good clean build, you got it. It doesn't matter how you get it. Just remember, less is more! Try less than you think will work before increasing the amount. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to re-load your muneca too soon. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
How'd the "well " get in my post?I didn't click on that. Weird! |
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| Author: | fric [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
alan stassforth wrote: How'd the "well " get in my post?I didn't click on that. Weird! PADMA is there!!!
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| Author: | Jim_H [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: F.P. questions... |
Code: the word "duh" will always be replaced with that emoticon.... (unless you put it inside code tags :p)
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