| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| I was pokin' around... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33527 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Jim_H [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I was pokin' around... |
...inside this Taylor XXX-RS (30th Anniversary Limited Edition Grand Concert), and I noticed this little channel carved in the top, all the way around the lower bought, right at the edge of the lining, from waist to waist. For those not familiar, this is a smallish body, 24.9" scale guitar best suited for finger style play. The body is 3.5" deep at the neck and 4" deep at the tail. I can't mic it, but my guestimate is that the this channel is about 1/4" wide, rounded, and is probably about half the thickness of the top deep. It's deep enough that room light shows through it. Looking at it with an inspection mirror, in normal room light, I can see the shadow of my finger on the outside. It's obviously intentional. Is this a common technique for tuning a top? I've never seen it before... I attached a small picture with the area in question circled in red. Here is a link to a full size (more detailed) version of the picture... http://hansenonline.org/images/xxx-rs-big.jpg Also, FYI, the reason I was poking around in this guitar, is because it's a spectacular sounding and playing instrument, and I was taking notes about the bracing and such, as I'm considering trying to build something similar. |
|
| Author: | Kim [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Taylor actually discuss this recess in the "Factory Friday" videos they have at the website....they have even taken a patent out on the process. I see it as just a quick production solution to achieve the thinning or feathering of the outer edge of the top that many builders have done for years to loosen up the top and achieve more bass output. http://www.taylorguitars.com/video/factory-fridays/ From memory you will find a small mention of this "enhancement" in video #7 that deals with bracing. Cheers Kim |
|
| Author: | Jim_H [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Thanks Kim, I'm obviously way behind on my Taylor Video watching (I used to follow them fairly closely). I attached another picture (sorry for the blurryness) of the top from the outside with a light inside the body. You can clearly see the bright line around the edge. Unfortunately, not being a repair type person, I don't get to poke around inside many guitars. I just checked a GS-5 (cedar topped grand symphony) and it has this 'feature' as well.... huh... this definitely goes in the "learn somethin' new every day" file... |
|
| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
It's magic! Your guitars will not sound as good as a Taylor, unless you do the same thing. Since they hold a patent, you can't, so you might as well give up. |
|
| Author: | David Malicky [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
In the patent, Taylor freely admits the relief cut is a lower labor alternative to tapering: http://www.google.com/patents?id=zJsRAAAAEBAJ That's not to say we know it is worse than tapering, acoustically. It may actually be better, as moving the hinge point as far out as possible lets more soundboard move. But tapering lets the hand-builder fine-tune the ~finished guitar. I'd say if your Taylor sounds spectacular, it can't be bad. I think it was phased in starting 2002. Bob says that it's hard to copy a Taylor because the sound has as much to do with their manufacturing processes as the design and dimensions. The wood variations make it even harder to copy an individual guitar. Might be interesting to try, though. |
|
| Author: | Jim_H [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Oh I have no intentions of trying to make an exact copy. I was just trying to learn as much about it as I could. I checked the brace dimensions and made some notes about the brace layout, and was just about to clean up the table for the night when I noticed that channel. Just another tidbit of information to go along with the other tidbits of information I'll forget by the end of next week. :p |
|
| Author: | jac68984 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Haven't archtop and some bowed instrument builders been doing this for decades? I don't really think this is new to Taylor guitars. Gotta love them patents. |
|
| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Sorry for going off topic but I just had an ah ha moment looking at this. What an awesome way to copy bracing. Never thought of putting a bright light in there and just tracing the pattern. I'm planning on copying my brothers guitar and you just made my life a lot easier, at least for that step. Thanks Jim_H wrote: Thanks Kim,
I'm obviously way behind on my Taylor Video watching (I used to follow them fairly closely). I attached another picture (sorry for the blurryness) of the top from the outside with a light inside the body. You can clearly see the bright line around the edge. Unfortunately, not being a repair type person, I don't get to poke around inside many guitars. I just checked a GS-5 (cedar topped grand symphony) and it has this 'feature' as well.... huh... this definitely goes in the "learn somethin' new every day" file... |
|
| Author: | Jim_H [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
That is definitely not original thought from me. I got the idea from posts here and other places. I did make a rough sketch of the brace layout and took some notes on the thickness and where they are scalloped and where the peaks are. I also eyeballed the bridge plate and where they put their plywood doublers... |
|
| Author: | Herr Dalbergia [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Hello, I generally think thats not an bad idea, but I would make it a bit wider. It probalby helps supporting the Monopolic vibration of the top a lot. BTWE it's an old shoe, just look at violins, cellos...also Jacob Weisgerber has used it often, and quite a few builders here in Europe, especially in germany do this on their classical guitars. In Germany we call this a "Hohlkehle", witch would be translated the German Carve, witch would lead us to Rickenbacker and so...there is not much new stuff in Guitarmaking, and everything comes back from time to time... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ja ... 3%9Fgerber best regards, Alec |
|
| Author: | Jim_H [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
banjopicks wrote: Sorry for going off topic but I just had an ah ha moment looking at this. What an awesome way to copy bracing. Never thought of putting a bright light in there and just tracing the pattern. I'm planning on copying my brothers guitar and you just made my life a lot easier, at least for that step. Thanks] One thing to be careful of here. Watch out for shadows. Try to get a small enough light to be able to move it around and get angles that reduce shadows as much as possible. |
|
| Author: | K.O. [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
I feel Taylor's method is a compromise about mass production and is a less desirable version of hand thinning; let them keep it (don't copy). |
|
| Author: | ChuckH [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Todd Stock wrote: Jim_H wrote: That is definitely not original thought from me. I got the idea from posts here and other places. I did make a rough sketch of the brace layout and took some notes on the thickness and where they are scalloped and where the peaks are. I also eyeballed the bridge plate and where they put their plywood doublers... Or just tape some paper to the top and use small rare earth magnets to pick us the bracing...widths are usually accurate to 1/32" from what I've seen in practice, which is more accurate than candling. Todd, Would you mind going into more detail on the use of magnets in this process? I'm not tracking on where to place the magnets to pick up the bracing. And then do you trace the outline in pencil on the paper? Thanks a bunch, Hutch |
|
| Author: | L. Presnall [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Todd Stock wrote: Jim_H wrote: That is definitely not original thought from me. I got the idea from posts here and other places. I did make a rough sketch of the brace layout and took some notes on the thickness and where they are scalloped and where the peaks are. I also eyeballed the bridge plate and where they put their plywood doublers... Or just tape some paper to the top and use small rare earth magnets to pick us the bracing...widths are usually accurate to 1/32" from what I've seen in practice, which is more accurate than candling. Todd, Could you elaborate? I'm a product of the AES... Thanks |
|
| Author: | Jim_H [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Thanks Todd, I'll have to give the magnet trick a try! Another trick I read somewhere is using a firm modeling putty to get rough measurements inside the guitar. Pre-shape some firm modeling putty to the approximate shape of the area you want to measure, then just lightly press it against the brace or whatever to get an impression you can measure outside of the guitar. There are other, more accurate ways to do this, but it works for a quick and dirty measurement. |
|
| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
Todd Stock wrote: Or just tape some paper to the top and use small rare earth magnets to pick us the bracing... Great minds must think alike. I picked up an abandoned project a while back that was to have a floating bridge and I couldn't remember where I put the bridge brace. It was a cedar top, so I couldn't use light. Then it hit me, magnets. . . worked like a charm. |
|
| Author: | LanceK [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I was pokin' around... |
I saw the same thing done by Kevin Ko over 10 years ago. He made a jig and used a router. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|
