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Measuring action
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33498		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  banjopicks [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Measuring action
What is your preferred method? I use feeler gauges and calipers and I have a hard time knowing if I really have the right thickness under the string. This method works better on spark plugs and other rigid objects. I'm curious about the gauge that SM sells. Anyone using this?
Author:  cwood8656 [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
I use one for measuring action at the 12th fret. Works fine for me.

Chris.
Author:  Tom West [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Feeler gauges..........!!
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
The Stew-Mac gauge makes the measurements a lot easier to see. I upgraded from a machinest's scale.

Feeler gauges never worked for me. It is difficult to get a definitive registration against a flexible string. Also, I don't think you need that much precision for this. Plus or minus ten thousandths of an inch is sufficient in my book.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Quote:
Also, I don't think you need that much precision for this. Plus or minus ten thousandths of an inch is sufficient in my book.


Gotta disagree with you there, Barry. I can easily tell the diff at around five thousandths, and I had some clients whose fingers were sensitive enough to detect differences of three thousandths consistently. It amazed me, but made me a better luthier. Since I was trained as a tool and die maker, precision just came natural to me.

That said, I never liked using feeler gauges to set the action at the nut - but in some instances I had to. I still prefer using a scale, but as the eyesight goes I may have to resort to feeler gauge. The scale is still fine for setting action at the bridge, although for a time I did use a modified caliper.

The action of the neck is what guitar playing is all about. It behooves us to master all the facets of setting action and getting good playability... because it keeps the clients coming back!

I used to tell my apprentices if they could make a good nut, level frets well, and do good setups that they'd always make money. The rest is... variable.

(don't get me started about tone - it's harder to measure, and more subjective)
Author:  banjopicks [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Many years ago was able to read a machinist scale down to +/- .005 with ease and like you said "Plus or minus ten thousandths of an inch is sufficient". I should break out my scale and magnifier and see if I can still do that. For some reason, I never even thought to just read it directly from a scale. I really hate the feeler gauges.

Barry Daniels wrote:
The Stew-Mac gauge makes the measurements a lot easier to see. I upgraded from a machinest's scale.

Feeler gauges never worked for me. It is difficult to get a definitive registration against a flexible string. Also, I don't think you need that much precision for this. Plus or minus ten thousandths of an inch is sufficient in my book.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Action and relief are tied together. I use a machinist scale , you are looking for 2/32 to 3/32 as a rule so you should be able to see that . Find the method that works for you. We tool and die guys use these scales so much it is 2nd nature. The next best way would be a pin gauge.
Calipers just are too bulky to manipulate to get a true reading. As for .010 being close enough , I think you need to be a bit tighter tolerance here . A good neck set up is what will make the guitar feel good. The more off you get the harder it is and the more it can influence the intonation .
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
The SM gauge is well worth your 20$ bucks.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Quote:
The next best way would be a pin gauge.


Not a bad idea. How come I never thought of it?
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
At the nut I use multiple strips of plastic or paper. I have a hard time feeling with "feeler" gauges and still being sure I'm not moving the string up when I'm measuring. Instead, I gather up multiple 1/2" strips of thin paper together and pass them between the fret and strings. It's much easier to feel a difference resistance and free, unobstructed movement under the string using something super flexible and light. I use a caliper to mearsure the paper thickness. Plus, the surface texture of paper might help too...in contrast to the metal of a feeler gauge moving under the string.

At the other end I essentially eyeball it using a dime under each string and then set the height just off the dime. But I only do electrics and set action much lower than an acoustic.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Magnifier and scale at the 12th for me. Fret the back side of the second fret and set first fret clearance by eye and ear - as close as I can without touching. Sounds like you guys are measuring this?
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
I've never used a feeler gauge. I use the string to set the neck perfectly straight, then I adjust the nut to the correct height for comfort and so that there is no sharpness at the first fret (I do this with the height of the string, I've never had to compensate a nut to eliminate sharpness since if the string is the correct height there will be none), then I set the saddle heights exactly to the correct height for what the player wants (some guys want perfectly clear bends, others prefer a little bit of tinniness at the apex of the bend for that tone), the I adjust the relief to the comfort of the player. Where it usually ends up is the bottom of the treble string just covers up the 2/32nd inch line, and the bottom of the bass string touches the top of the 2/32nd inch line.
Author:  windsurfer [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
I have been using a digital drop gauge.

place the ball on the fingerboardboard right nest to the 12th, then depress the string with the beam until the string just touches the fret.

hit the "zero"

raise the beam until it starts to lift off the string and read the action off the display.

-jd
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Quote:
Where it usually ends up is the bottom of the treble string just covers up the 2/32nd inch line, and the bottom of the bass string touches the top of the 2/32nd inch line.


About what I set most guitars at, the rockers and some jazzers like it a bit lower.
Author:  banjopicks [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
and the bottom of the bass string touches the top of the 2/32nd inch line.

Shouldn't that read 3/32nd?
Author:  B. Howard [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
When slotting a nut, I measure fret height with the tail of my calipers, add desired clearance for whichever string I am going to slot and stack feeler gauges to that height, then file the slot till it just grazes the feeler gauge. I measure neck relief with a feeler gauge also, a few tousandths there is a big deal to me. I want just enough relief to play clean and nothing more. Action at the twelfth fret is measured with a machinists scale by 64ths of an inch. Actually 128ths as I will note measurements by the half 64th. I have looked at the SM gauge and considered purchasing, but since it will not entirely replace the other tools I mentioned and I do not believe it will yield better results I think I'll buy more wood instead.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
banjopicks wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
and the bottom of the bass string touches the top of the 2/32nd inch line.

Shouldn't that read 3/32nd?


Depends on the player, but most of my guys would consider 3/32 almost high action. I rarely get anyone to request higher than what I normally do, but it happens. Usually they'll tell me ahead of time that they like higher action if that's the case. I like a consistent feel across the chord shape, but the wound strings need about 128th of an inch (or less) higher than the treble strings.
Like Chris said, some rockers and jazzers will actually have the action 1/64 lower than that.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Todd Stock wrote:
SM action gauge for 12th fret action and height at bridge, SM nut slotting gauge for action at the first and for relief where it's not looking like it's a go. Much faster than feeler gauges and much more accurate than fretting at the second and setting nut height.


So no feeler gauge then?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
If you can make a nut and do a good setup, you would be able to serve the general public (like street musicians) rather than professional musician who are fewer in number... you would be able to "upgrade" a cheaper guitar by putting a proper nut and saddle on the guitar.
Author:  banjopicks [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
banjopicks wrote:
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
and the bottom of the bass string touches the top of the 2/32nd inch line.

Shouldn't that read 3/32nd?


Depends on the player, but most of my guys would consider 3/32 almost high action. I rarely get anyone to request higher than what I normally do, but it happens. Usually they'll tell me ahead of time that they like higher action if that's the case. I like a consistent feel across the chord shape, but the wound strings need about 128th of an inch (or less) higher than the treble strings.
Like Chris said, some rockers and jazzers will actually have the action 1/64 lower than that.



OK. I play mostly bluegrass and I don't think I would like a guitar set up that low but then, I really haven't tried it. I'll give it a try sometime.
Author:  banjopicks [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Quote:
Brian Kimsey has the best take on flatpicker/strummer stuff I've read

Yeah, Brians setup guide is what I used on the last 2 and I have it bookmarked for a quick read before I do my next one also. I still need to find out what my own minimum might be though. I'll do some experimenting on the Guild I just re-set.
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
banjopicks wrote:
Quote:
Brian Kimsey has the best take on flatpicker/strummer stuff I've read

Yeah, Brians setup guide is what I used on the last 2 and I have it bookmarked for a quick read before I do my next one also. I still need to find out what my own minimum might be though. I'll do some experimenting on the Guild I just re-set.


Your own minimum height will depend on how you strike the strings. The lower the action, the more technique becomes a factor in actively controlling string buzz.
Author:  banjopicks [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
That's got me thinking and I'm curious about say Doc Watsons setup or TR. Does anyone have this info? I imagine TRs to be on the low side compared to Docs.
Author:  woody b [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
banjopicks wrote:
That's got me thinking and I'm curious about say Doc Watsons setup or TR. Does anyone have this info? I imagine TRs to be on the low side compared to Docs.


A client of mine who's friends with Doc said Doc's standard set up is .090"-.070 ish. Another friend of mine says Doc could play the heck out of a guitar with 1/4" action.
Author:  banjopicks [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Measuring action
Thanks for the info Woody. Now I know if I set up my guitar to those specs, I'll be able to play just like Doc. laughing6-hehe
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