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Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
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Author:  FrankC [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I am a 100% total hobbyist who does whatever building he does with as many hand tools as possible (i like it quiet and cleaner). I do it more for the "enjoyment" and not for speed. I just get in a relaxed state hearing the plane run over wood or the dovetail saw quickly eating through some mahogany. I feel I can be just as accurate by hand as I do take my time (hence the reason why so much never gets finished :) ). Anyway, is there anyone here doing MOSTLY everything by hand without a power tool? I am thinking router for the truss rod groove but anyone planing tops/backs and sides? Gramil and chisel for bindings? Handsaws, coping saws, hand drills?

And I know things are easier and faster with power tools and I am not knocking anyone for using them. Just curious if anyone is THAT old school here. At some point I want to take a project (guitar or otherwise) from rough lumber to finished "product" WITHOUT a power tool.

Maybe I am as strange as everyone says I am :D

Also as an FYI, I will be getting started on a mahogany/redwood OOO. Got the bug again after shopping for an OOO when I know I would get much more satisfaction building one then buying
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I have 2 electric drill motors, a router, 2 Dremels, and a saber saw.
No big stuff - izzat what you mean?

If I need a jointer or planer, there is a City crafts center nearby.

Fave tool - hand files.
Author:  oval soundhole [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Boaz elkayem only uses hand tools and makes some really amazing guitars.
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I indirectly use power tools by buying pre-cut blanks (rough sawn tops and back/side sets, 1x3xwhatever neck blanks, etc.) rather than buying boards from the lumberyard and hand sawing into plates, but if you ignore that, then I do very little with power tools :)

Truss rod slot and inlay pockets (I do lots of small inlays) are the only parts I would truly dread attempting by hand. I do those with a dremel (actually black&decker knockoff) and stewmac router base. A laminate trimmer would save some time on the truss rod, since I have to do two passes to get the full width of it, and a whole lot to get the full depth. I also do rosette work with the dremel router, even though I could technically do it with hand tools. Doubt I could get as consistent depth by hand, and not much advantage I can think of.

I also use a drill press for the tuner holes, and for barrel bolt holes in bolt-on necks. For one thing, trying to drill a 3/8" hole with a hand crank drill doesn't usually work, and for another, getting those holes perfectly vertical is somewhat critical. The drill press may become unnecessary though, since I'm thinking about switching to open geared tuners for lower weight, and integral necks for a confusing web of reasons. Also could use a reamer for the tuner holes, but for one thing, decent reamers are expensive, and for another, a two step (3/8" for the bottom, 5/16" for the bushing) cylindrical hole supports the tuner better.

Also, ever since watching this guy slice a veneer from a board by hand http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2800/2810.html I've been much more tempted to get a big saw like that and try slicing my own plates as well... But still, going from raw log form to planks (for hardwoods that don't split well) with hand saws would be rather difficult unless I found a partner in crime, so if I'm going to involve power tools at some point in the chain, the rough sawn plates seem like a reasonable starting point.

And anyway, my main reasons for avoiding big power tools are noise, safety, and the fact that I have near zero space to work as it is (I use my dad's drill press for those couple jobs, otherwise I'd definitely have to eliminate it).
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I like to believe that I use a good mix of both the old and the new. I have a bunch of hand tools and could just use them to make instruments, however I also choose to have quite a few nice modern timesaving power tools that, used judiciously, make my life a whole lot easier and even allow me to do some things that would be nigh on impossible by hand.

Tool neanderthals (that's what they call themselves - see www.sawmillcreek.org - I'm not intending any insult here!) sometimes seem to forget that it also takes skills (granted, different skills than the skills needed for great hand tool work, but skills nevertheless) to run some of the modern power tools to get great results.

Crafts people have strived through the ages to improve the quality and production rate of their work using improved tools of all kinds. There have always been those that stay with the older tools and methods, and good for them....we'd be much worse off without them. Not all crafts people want or need to improve their tools, but some, like me, do. I believe there's room for every flavor of everything in this world.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
While I run my doubletops through the drum sander, after having roughed up with a planer and carved out with a router, my Droid X in my pocket offers some advice on bracing patterns :)

But seriously. 20 years building guitars and only recently, well 5 years now, have I got tools that do the job that I am perfectly capable of doing by hand in a fraction of the time.

You have to ask your self if it's for you? Why do you build? Etc... If you love the sound of a freshly sharpened hand plane truing up the fretboard, the top, the neck and so on then that's what you are in it for. If you want to get over the busy work and focus on results without loosing quality then a power tool can get you there.
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Well.. Consider that up till about 90-years ago, good quality power tools like Routers could easily have been too expensive for most Luthiers - or really even almost any high quality power tools was probably too expensive for small non-industrial production scale shops..... Literally - everything was done by hand when Grand dad was a kid.....

So... For the 10,000 years prior to 90-years ago - every musical instrument made in the entire world was made almost completely without power tools... and there were some pretty well respected instruments made during that time.... It can be done.

Thanks
Author:  WilliamS [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
On my first two builds the only power tool I used was a hand drill to do the tuner holes. That was it. I'm glad I did those that way but I can honestly say that I never intend to cut binding channels by hand again. They turned out fine, binding and purfs fit well but it now takes me 10-15 minutes of setup and maybe 10 minutes of work to do what it took me more or less a full day to do on those instruments.
I still mostly use hand tools. I do now own a jet 10-20 but haven't used it that much-still do a lot of thicknessing by hand (though I'll probably start using the sander a little more). I do use a laminate trimmer for binding ledges and saddle slots and a drill press for tuner holes but that's about it. If I had the space for more machinery I'd probably use more power tools (they'd probably help me burn through the tonewood that somehow seems to keep piling up in my shop) but I do enjoy using hand tools.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Same here, I only use a hand drill for tuner holes and bridge holes.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I have a Bandsaw that I use mainly for cutting herringbone inlay. For the rest of the work I use hand tools. I recently did a hardwood truss rod using nothing more than a cutting gauge and a chisel.
Occasionally hand tools can be just as quick as using a power tool. Often it is quite a bit slower. I think the Luthier Michael Thames said that he can thickness 30 Tops, Backs and Sides in a morning. I'd struggle to do 2 sets.
Take your choice. If it's productivity you want then it makes perfect sense to go the power tool route.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
On my steel string guitars I use the usual array of routers, band saws and drills. However on my classical guitars, and lutes I use hand tools only in the traditional way. No logic to the two methods, though I do build pure Torres, it just is something I enjoy.

Colin
Author:  truckjohn [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
When I started building - I didn't have access to any power tools beyond an electric hand drill and a laminate trimmer router.... Turns out that you can successfully build instruments just fine like this....

As with everything else - there is a trade off.... James Krenov spoke about this some in his Cabinetmaker's Notebook.... I found it interesting that his compromise between hand tools and power tools was that some operations were physically very hard - they just wore him out... His comment was that he had some quantity of physical effort and attention - and that he would rather not wear him self down physically on tedious, hard work like resawing huge planks... He wanted to save his creativity and attention for tasks he enjoyed - making joints, planing surfaces, designing, and finishing.... In my mind, that's a very good compromise.....

That is something worthwhile to consider.... Sure - you can do the whole thing by hand from cutting the trees all the way to the final finish and setup... That is how Instruments were made for thousands of years.... There are many tasks that you may find leave you used up - worn out and sapped after you finish.... and they don't get you something that is any different from what you could get from a hand tool other than just the joy (or lack thereof) of doing it yourself. Milling a tree by hand would classify under that category in my mind.... as would resawing planks into the guitar plates......

Most of the other tasks aren't this easy to classify... Most home shop duty thickness sanders don't really sand a set of plates any faster than planing by hand.... Making scarf joint neck blank with a hand saw doesn't really take any more time than it does with a power saw - although a band saw is handy for cutting out the neck outline.... Power sanders can easily take off too much stock far too fast where a chisel may be easier to control.... and last - there may not be any power tools available to do certain tasks any better than hand tools do.... Etc.....

Thanks
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Swiss Army knife for me, including for felling the occasional dalbergia that comes my way in the Maine woods. I am a purist. The corkscrew comes handy for the frequent breaks I have to take. I love my life.
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I prefer using hand tools whenever possible. Feels more natural, is quieter, and it makes me feel like I'm actually doing the work myself. I started out with a lot of power tools but have weened myself away from them over time. I look forward to getting them out of my shop so I have more bench space. The power tools I use and shamelessly rely on are my band saw and drill press. The band saw saves me time and the drill press gives me precise holes that are straight up and down. By the way, use good drill bits, or else there's no point to using the tool for precision work. A good spindle sander is something else I could get good use out of, or perhaps find a way to make one out of my drill press. Either way, something that will accurately sand the walls of body moulds and electric guitars is something I'd like. I haven't touched my router in quite a while. Even for truss rod channels I use my drill press, gramil, and chisel, and find that it gives me a satisfactory result that will get better as I master the process. I can imagine getting a router plane for it as well as similar ones. I really enjoyed that video and hammer veneering. Makes me also want to pick up a good saw and start resawing my own plates all commando like duh padma

The table saw also gets an honorable mention. I find it very useful when cutting big pieces and mould making.

Yer a funny guy Laurent ;)
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
For guitar building work, I don't really need any power tools. Well, I using them now 'cause I have access to, at school, but I could virtually do all that without. Maybe a press drill can help to drill at perfect 90° but still, I'm sure we can do without.

Where power tools are very useful, according to me, is when you want to build jigs, fixtures, workboards, etc... or when you want to resaw from billets, or when you want a larger production of guitars.

That said, I finish school in 1 year, and won't have access to power tools anymore. Since I'll have to refund student loans and debts, I won't have to money to buy power tools. And considering that I only have a small workplace now, I could not have room for big stuff.

So my plan is to build the next guitars entirely by hand, old school, using pre-cut blanks and lot of elbow grease. When I'll be more established, I'll get a bigger place and probably purchase few power tools for the reasons I've said, but not much, 'cause I love hand work a lot, and want to stay in small production.

My 2 cents
Francis
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Working with hand tools is very satifiying.
you have to be very aware of grain orientation.
working with wood means -JUST THAT !

But planning and scraping a highly figured B & S set is tiring.
But rewarding.
I still love doing as much as I can with hand tools.

But I love my sander! :D

Mike
Author:  amcardon [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
I've been in Peter Tsiorba's shop (and I hope he doesn't mind me commenting on his behalf!) and I might as well have walked into a shop 200 years ago... It was fantastic and quite the treat to see him work. He makes some gorgeous classicals and is a great guy to talk and have a cup of tea with (thanks again, Brother!).

I'm trying to think of what I saw in his shop that required electricity and I think the only thing I can think of is his side bending post... Other than that it was all hand tools.
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
amcardon wrote:
I'm trying to think of what I saw in his shop that required electricity and I think the only thing I can think of is his side bending post...

Right! I forgot about that one, as well as the electric glue pot. That would be a major pain maintaining the temperature of hide glue using charcoal or something as a heat source. And again, smaller and safer to use electricity :)
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Besides the pot, there's the AC, the dehumidifier and the frigging light. I really wouldn't like working at the candle light in 65% humidity!!
Author:  FrankC [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Alexandru Marian wrote:
Besides the pot, there's the AC, the dehumidifier and the frigging light. I really wouldn't like working at the candle light in 65% humidity!!


Now working by candle, or moonlight...that would be VERY old school.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just wondering...any "old school" builders here?
Laurent Brondel wrote:
Swiss Army knife for me, including for felling the occasional dalbergia that comes my way in the Maine woods. I am a purist. The corkscrew comes handy for the frequent breaks I have to take. I love my life.


Funny you should say that.
I was thinking about building a guitar with nothing but a knife.
Maybe I'll try sometime when I have some extra free time...
Ha!!!!!!!
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