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| Bracing critique, please… http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32815 |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bracing critique, please… |
I’m working on the top for build #2 and am hoping for some feedback on the bracing before I glue it to the rim. It will be a 14-fret Martin style sapele / Sitka 000 that will be used mostly for flatpicking and strumming with light strings. It’s the first top I have done from scratch, and is not based on any particular plan, so I am very interested in any suggestions the experienced folks here can offer. The top is a relatively stiff piece of Sitka and is about 0.12” at the bridge plate, graduating to about 0.11” on the bass side of the lower bout and 0.115” on the treble side. The braces are red spruce. The x braces are 1/4” wide and 9/16” tall at the intersection, not counting the cap. The face and finger braces are also 1/4” wide. The bridge plate is Guatemalan rosewood and about 0.15” thick. I took the lower leg of the x brace on the bass side down just a hair lower than the treble side. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks! |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
PS - the top is cut out with a 1/4" - 1/2" margin around the perimeter, which may not be apparent in the photos. PPS - the x angle is 98 degrees. I just weighed the top and it comes in at 287 grams, which should drop by a few when the margin is removed. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
I won't predict how a guitar will sound, or hold up from looking at pictures, but.....nice clean work. |
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| Author: | Mark Tripp [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Looks good Charlie! Nice clean work! ![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations") I'll assume you meant .12, to .11, rather than .012, to .011! I think with the thickness of your top, and the dimensions of your braces, you should have a fine sounding guitar! Did you voice by tapping? Nice job. Way nicer than my first one from scratch! -Mark |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Thanks guys! Mark - you are correct about the thickness measurments - I just corrected them.  Oh, and I did voice by tapping, although I don't think I accomplished much with it aside from etching a reference point in memory for future builds. When tapping I held the top about 1.5" in from the edge between the end of the bass side x brace and the upper tone bar and tapped at the bridge location. I also held it by sticking my thumb through the soundhole and letting the upper edge of the soundhole rest on the pad of my thumb. I get a slightly better ring with the latter, but in both cases I get a nice resonant "ring" with about 2 seconds of sustain. Does that all sound reasonable? By the way, I love your label! Very clever and unique. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Charlie: Nice clean work and I would bet it's going to sound excellant. Wonder if you are going to use a popcicle brace and if no why not?? Tom |
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| Author: | Zach Ehley [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
My finger braces tend to look a bit shorter and taper further from the sides, but that could just be the differences in wood. The outer scallops look pretty close to the sides, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Looks really good.
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Tom West wrote: Charlie: Nice clean work and I would bet it's going to sound excellant. Wonder if you are going to use a popcicle brace and if no why not?? Thanks Tom. I was not planning to use a popsicle brace, but don't have a strong feeling one way or the other. My bracing layout is based loosely on that of a 1938 Martin 000-18, which did not have one. I could still add one, though, if you talk me into it. 
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| Author: | Mark Tripp [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Charlie, That's what the first several help with. Points of reference. Take advantage of it, and make notes of measurements and observations - they will serve you well in future builds. Something I never did for the first few, and sorely wish I had. Thanks for noticing the label. I worked with Dwight Knowlton at 73ideas - great guy to work with. It was like he crawled inside my mind, and pulled out what I saw there. -Mark |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Zach Ehley wrote: My finger braces tend to look a bit shorter and taper further from the sides, but that could just be the differences in wood. The outer scallops look pretty close to the sides, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Looks really good. Zach - the finger braces are an area where I was a little conservative. I wanted to get some feedback on them, and knew it would be easier to removed more wood than add it back.  Since the guitar will be used primarily for flatpicking and strumming rather than fingerstyle, I didn't want to overdo it. Do you think I should shave them back a bit further from the sides?Thanks for the input! |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Looks Great! With the thickness you have ended up with and the scallop carve you have used I think you will be very happy with the results. |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Robbie_McD wrote: Looks Great! With the thickness you have ended up with and the scallop carve you have used I think you will be very happy with the results. Thank you, Robbie. That's encouraging to hear! 
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Charlie: Varying opinions as to it's need or not. Personally I like to use them but a shorter version then usual. The force of the strings puts a lot of force on the heel end of the neck trying to force it towards the sound hole.If you don't use a popcicle brace all that keeps the neck from trying to collapse into the hole is the glue area on the UTB and the sheer strenght of the spruce in the top along side the fingerboard. If the top should crack along the fingerboard all you have left is the UTB. This happened to me on one of my earlier guitars that did not have popcicle brace and the neck moved into the hole about 1/8 inch. Messed up the rosette etc. and ended up a less then pretty sight.That top was cedar which I think helped in the failure.Spruce may have held and of course there are lots of guitars out there without the brace that have faired well. Since then I've always used a popcicle brace and advocate for them especially to folks who want to remove them from existing guitars. This is just my experience and feeling,lots of folks feel otherwise. Show us some pictures of the finished product. Good luck. Tom |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Tom – thanks for sharing that. As you mentioned, the popsicle brace is a bit controversial and I have no experience on which to base an opinion. I would certainly like to avoid your experience if I can though, so I think I may add a shorter one, as you do. How short do you make yours, if I may ask? Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts. Much appreciated. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
I think you are just fine with that setup. I don't see any major red flags. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Here's my current take on OM or OOO sized instruments, in this case a 12 fret model. I'm not suggesting that you change anything, just offering my take on this, as I think you have done a great job! I use one finger brace only, and one lower face brace, on the smaller body guitars. Dreadnaught and larger get 2 fingers and 2 LFB's, although the additionl braces are smaller. I include the flat graft under the fretboard, as I believe the neck region needs the reinforcement, especially in the 12 fret models. I also use a 2 inch long neck block, slightly longer than most factory neck blocks. My x braces are 5/8th's tall in the middle, grading down to 3/16th in the upper legs and 1/8th in the lower legs, carved into a parabola shape, and tucked into the kerfing. The fingers are 1/4 inch tall, feathered down to nothing at the ends, carved triangularly. The lower face's highest point is 1/2 inch, in the center of the guitar, feathering down to nothing at the ends, carved triangularly. I also tuck the upper face brace into the kerfings, and the soundhole braces are tight against both the x braces and the UFB. Most of you will probably recognize the influence of William Cumpiano, whom I consider to be one of the greats. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Charlie: I make sure the popcicle goes past both ends of the sound hole. Four inch sound hole and I make the brace about 6" long. That gives a inch on either side of the sound hole.Take care. Tom |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Terence Kennedy wrote: I think you are just fine with that setup. I don't see any major red flags. Thanks Terence!
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: Here's my current take on OM or OOO sized instruments, in this case a 12 fret model. I'm not suggesting that you change anything, just offering my take on this, as I think you have done a great job! I use one finger brace only, and one lower face brace, on the smaller body guitars. Dreadnaught and larger get 2 fingers and 2 LFB's, although the additionl braces are smaller. I include the flat graft under the fretboard, as I believe the neck region needs the reinforcement, especially in the 12 fret models. I also use a 2 inch long neck block, slightly longer than most factory neck blocks. My x braces are 5/8th's tall in the middle, grading down to 3/16th in the upper legs and 1/8th in the lower legs, carved into a parabola shape, and tucked into the kerfing. The fingers are 1/4 inch tall, feathered down to nothing at the ends, carved triangularly. The lower face's highest point is 1/2 inch, in the center of the guitar, feathering down to nothing at the ends, carved triangularly. I also tuck the upper face brace into the kerfings, and the soundhole braces are tight against both the x braces and the UFB. Most of you will probably recognize the influence of William Cumpiano, whom I consider to be one of the greats. TGW - Thank you for sharing the photo and your thoughts. That's a nice, clean top! Are your x braces 1/4"? I'm also curious about the single finger brace...what is the advantage over two on each side? Does it impact the treble / bass balance, or just lighten up the guitar a bit? Thanks again. Charlie |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Tom West wrote: Charlie: I make sure the popcicle goes past both ends of the sound hole. Four inch sound hole and I make the brace about 6" long. That gives a inch on either side of the sound hole.Take care. Tom Thanks Tom!
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
SS truss holes are always giving me a scare (and yours looks bigger than usual) knowing that a solid UTB helps against caving in. How about capping with a 2" length of rosewood or carbon fiber? Take my 2 cents with lots of salt, just thinking outside the classical box 
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
Alexandru Marian wrote: SS truss holes are always giving me a scare (and yours looks bigger than usual) knowing that a solid UTB helps against caving in. How about capping with a 2" length of rosewood or carbon fiber? Take my 2 cents with lots of salt, just thinking outside the classical box Interesting idea, Alexandru. I may do that. Thanks for the suggestion. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing critique, please… |
I simply think the second finger brace is simply unnecesary is all. The edge of the guitar and the x-brace make a triangular shaped section of soundboard, which is smaller than on a dreadnaught, and is therefore stiffer, so subtracting a finger leaves that region lighter, and more responsive. The single lower face brace leaves the region behind the bridge a little more flexible and more responsive to pumping low frequencies out the soundhole via point-source emanations. The x braces are 5/16ths wide and 5/8ths tall, the same as my dreadnaughts. |
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